quick story <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> decoy is working my dog with a sleeve he is takeing good lower and upper bites ( synthetic sleeve)decoy is working left to right. dog is in prey even though the whip is cracking and the decoy is yelling and the dog is thrashing. the decoy asks if my dog is real ( i love that question ). i reply a simple yes and the decoy sais sure he is and drives the dog backwards towering over him and striking him with the whip handle on the sides. my dog instantly releases ears back tail strait out and instantly grabs the decoy buy the leg decoy goes down the dog is on his ( the decoys ) back ripping and thrashing. i outed the dog it took 2 commands. do you see the diferance in the drives? the decoy is now a better decoy due to the situation and thankfully for a good pair of leather scratch pants only sufferd some bruising and a torn up ego. when the dog goes from prey or defence to offence and kicking butt NOW THATS FIGHT DRIVE
TOM

Ok, I'm going to step in here because we're getting the classic problems with posts about "fight drive"

Different people have different views on what fight drive is ( I've said this many times before ). The vast majority of handlers have never seen fight drive, although many think that they have. And this includes several National level handlers that I personally know. They're mistaken, and that's just the way of dog training.
( This comment is not meant as an insult or is directed towards any one person, I'm just trying to prevent misconceptions, ok? )

For the new people with an interest in this subject, it would be best if you read some of the articles and posts that Ed and Kevin have made in the past about this subject.

A dog with a good fight surely learns it through experience. Let him subdue the decoy in his natural way using fangs, claws, and intelligence.

Quote:For the new people with an interest in this subject, it would be best if you read some of the articles and posts that Ed and Kevin have made in the past about this subject.

Or, even better, just forget about fight drive. This elusive drive that only appears in the very few.

Lets face it, there is no fight drive training. Dogs have it, or they don't. Since the vast majority of dogs don't have it, and the ones that do are rather obvious.

This thought process for most people is a waste of time, their dog doesn't have it.

If you know your dog won't put up a good fight why continue training it.

I suggest you get another dog if your not satisfied with what your current dog is giving you.

I have read several postings under the "Fight Drive" forum and one dog keeps coming to mind (At least I think this is a dog that shows fight drive). On Ed's video Visiting Holland's Police Dog Schools and KNPV Clubs , he goes to a club that has a guy named, Yoop- (I'm certain that the spelling is incorrect, but it sounds like that). He has a dog that he was working on getting its' KNPV II title. You could tell that as soon as that dog hit the field there was no doubt that he would be a serious dog. Several times during the bite training you see Yoop give him food for doing what he's told to do. If you watch the dog's behavior and interaction with the decoy you can see that he (the dog) believes that he dominates everything and everyone in his world and dares anyone to question that. I think? that this dog exudes fight drive, if I understand the definition of fight drive, as given on the board.
Randall

Dogs are dogs. How many dogs in your club have fight drive? How are you determining this? Do you really think this has to be trained? I just like training. I am not a small person, and I don't have the temperament that needs to have a dog protect me. I want to mash idiots myself.

Now back to fight drive. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I have had dogs that wanted to hurt the decoy, and required very little stimulation to do so. When they rip the sleeve off of the helper, and then seriously consider going after him, thats enough for me. I will take the other dogs, but that is me. I would like to see how many people REALLY think their dog has this drive.

I have been doing this long enough to know that most people overestimate their dog drastically. I have caught these "MONSTERS" personally and trust me they are not. Monsters are not fun to work 'cause they scare you. They are not fun to work 'cause if you push a little too hard they might just come over the top of the sleeve at your face. MONSTERS don't do obedience. Some things to think about. I would like to hear what people really think.

First of all I'm having troubles understanding your drives, gotta confess it is driving me nuts.

Does this have to be trained? No, this is natural to the dog, but for him to fight effectively is totally different question.

We got the same temperament jeff, I understand you <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Will, not trying to start a debate i would just like to here your response. do you feel that when a mature dog takes the fight to the decoy trying to hurt, make submit or litteraly kill he has fight drive. take the wolf pack many males never challenge for the top they are happy in their ranked possision in the pack and never fight they are active members that help hunt help protect very rarely get to breed and never challenge alpha. then theres the ones that challenge alpa get there buts cicked go rogue and never fite again did they lose this drive?? in a long lived pack lets say 30 years there may only be 3 or 4 alpha males are they the only ones with true fight drive ???? i dont know the answer to the questions they are just that questions. i think everone with above average k-9 experiance will all agree very few dogs have this true drive we call fight TOM

I know that the general concensus is that you train for this stuff, but I think, from my experience that even if you don't, it is comin out. I like to call them monsters. Mostly mythological creatures that live under bridges. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I have had dogs that looked at the decoy as it's rag to kill. I had one that we tried so hard never to put him into defence, and played like it was a game. He didn't go for our little ruse. If you want to call it fight drive fine. He was dead serious, and didn't need much to try and hurt the decoy. This is someone he saw almost daily. At 5 months he couldn't be out in the house when he was over. I never trained it, tried to avoid it, nope he still wanted to muckle the decoy. Didn't get to far with that dog. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I didn't know what to call it then except monster. The slightest bit of threat and he would hurt you through the sleeve, if he didn't rip it off, or just try to go over it. I tried to play tug with him and he got pretty scary about that. Yuck. Don't want one of those, 'cept if I was breeding. Of course with my luck, I will never own one again if I even thought about breeding <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />