Is the wda judge still working as a judge?

Actually, he was the director of protection or some such position for a while in the WDA.
And yep, he's still judging.
He's entitled to his opinion of course, but his blatant bias towards Showlines dogs ( strangely enough...the very type that his fellow judges were showing.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> ) was just painful to watch.
I'll never show in a WDA trial again. Let them cheat with each other, becuase that's exactly what they're doing.

I couldn't agree more. I think there are some details that would have to be worked out in terms of how many generations it takes to put the progeny into the GSD pool/how many times in how many generations the dogs can be bred to a Mali, and which Malis are chosen to be bred into the gene pool, but the overall concept makes perfect sense.

In my mind, a Mali is closer to a GSD than many of the GSD's from various GSD lines around the world.

They do have a lot they can bring to the GSD line in terms of health and drive, but we have to be careful about which lines. Some French lines have struck me as really, really small, nervy and despite their huge drive levels, more than a little sensitive. I've seen Malinois from those lines that look incredible on the field, but without the right early work they'd be awful failures - and they probably weren't dogs that could be trained in the same way as a working line GSD. Whereas some of the KNPV lines might be a better fit for working with GSD genetics.

Overall, I think that the SV has to work out its internal structure for any plan like this to work. Breeders need to be rewarded by the organization for breeding dogs that can do the work - not just get by. Maybe putting one working line BSP dog as VA every year would help to change the economics and incentives a bit - or giving awards to kennels that produce working K9's as well. As long as the internal structure (and reward system) remains what it is, the problem will come back again.

--Alan...

 Quote:

I feel the probable positive outcome of crossbreeding Malinois into the working GSD population would outweigh the negative impacts.

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Call me a fatalist, but I can't see the working GSD breed survive another 20 years without SOMETHING done. I think this is a viable answer. . .so did Helmut Raiser. (There are various translated speaches of his on the net where he talked about using the available science on hybrid vigor to infuse the GSD breed with another group of canine genetic working stock.)

...

Von Stephanitz advocated against the majority of the SV's membership for an open studbook as long as he held control of the SV. He wanted to allow for the infusion of working stock (at the discretion of the breed wardens) because he saw the benefits first hand. It's a little odd in my opinion that the stud book was only unofficially closed after he was terminally ill and no further studs were entered into the book after his passing. I don't know if the studbook was officially closed before or after this death, but it was certainly done after he hand no further input on the matter.

BTW, the correct rumor as to the extra genetics in the Czech GSD's woodpile is Carpathian wolf, not Malinois.

The story goes like this. There were two Carpathian wolves captured and given to the z PS. They were hunted and captured because they were proven man eaters. The pair had hunted and killed 3 rural people "somewhere" in the Transylvanian plateau before being caught.

They were abnormally aggressive and would fight men without regard for their own safety. . .true "peklo lovecký pes", or hell hounds. LOL

This is the rumor that was whispered in the Czech Republic and the former DDR long before the Malinois was even available to any extent in Eastern Europe. There are a number of reasons this rumor was carried on, not the least of which being the civilian's view of the z PS dogs and their purpose.



This rumor, along with the Malinois one, is utterly false.

Sorry VC and Andrew...couldn't reply earlier with puppies, seminar, and training yadda yadda yadda...so I'll try to make this a quick one! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Firstly, what makes anyone think that by crossing the two they'll get the best of both worlds??? There's always a tradeoff...There is no such thing as a perfect dog. ie., So you end up with a driven, intense, dysplastic dog or one that can scale an 8 ft wall but has epilepsy...Been to Holland a number of times and MANY wouldn't touch a GS/Mal cross. Someone mentioned KNPV...There is a reason why their choice is a Mal or DS...If the GSD/Mal X's were the ultimate working dogs...They would be dominating KNPV. GSD's are not is short supply in Holland or in Belgium (NVBK). If anyone would use a cross that worked exceptionally well...the KNPV people would without hesitation as probably would the NVBK people. So one has to ask WHY aren't there more of them????

Historically, along with the GSD/Mal X's the Dutch have also infused Pits and Great Danes into their KNPV prospects...Those too were abandoned. I'm not saying that there aren't exceptions to the rule...but I think we have to be cautious when making blanket statements or generalizations. Because these exceptions are NOT the rule/norm.

Regardless of those who state that these two are most similar...they are NOT. They are very different. Just ask a GSD die hard or a Mal die hard and the reasons behind their passions...If the 4 varieties of Belgians (SAME breed) are so vastly different that they may as well be a different breed...how can one say that a GSD is close to a MAL???? There is no comparison between Mals and Tervs and Laekenois, and Groenendaels...so how could a GSD be closer???

And secondly, since history tends to repeat itself (humanity being what it is)...what makes anyone think that people won't make the same mistakes/moves and end up exactly where they are today???? Crossing them...may provide a temporary 'fix'; but it's not going to affect the overall outcome IMO.

Oh and Andrew...look forward to that beer!!! lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You're exaggerating what's been said.

The lack of mixes "dominating" dogsport says nothing about the quality of the dogs produced, especially when it is only a small percentage of people doing it. . .who are still able to produce proven crossbred working stock. . .who do compete at high levels in dogsport.


The GSD and Malinois are similar. I didn't say they are the most similar, but pretty damn close. Both dogs are bred for the same working disciplines and require the same skill sets and inherited behaviors to excel in them. There would only be a few dogs on the planet that would be more similar.


Brigita wrote: "So you end up with a driven, intense, dysplastic dog or one that can scale an 8 ft wall but has epilepsy."


This is just rediculous. First, when there are two genetic populations mixed the result will be fewer cases of genetic diseases as long as one population has less of the offending gene. There is ample science to support that, not to mention mathematics. LOL Overall temperamental traits would still be similar and would be the focus of your selective process down the line. Both breeds do share similar working drives and temperaments, so those genetics would be similar. Genetic full mouth grips are not going to be a different sets of genes in each breed. They're both dogs, those triats are going to be similar and the genetics that control them are also going to be similar.

Brigita wrote: "since history tends to repeat itself (humanity being what it is)...what makes anyone think that people won't make the same mistakes/moves and end up exactly where they are today???? Crossing them...may provide a temporary 'fix'; but it's not going to affect the overall outcome IMO."



Here is your one and only good point. No, infusing the GSD breed with a limited amount of Malinois stock would probably not affect breeding practices and unless those breeding practices changed you will likely end up in the same spot. So I'd agree in that case, it would be a temporary fix. There has to be ongoing discussion and argument about how to breed the best working GSDs, that's a given. . .and it does happen. . .and there are a number of good breeders.

Where I see the problem is that the genetic base of the GSD breed might not be strong enough, even with changes in breeding practices, to survive another 100 years. Seeking outside genetics for working ability could be a good thing. . .not to mention the various benefits of hybrid vigor and having a broader gene pool to draw on.

Speaking to broad gene pools and hybrid vigor, one could argue that NO breed will be able to survive another 100 years without some fresh infusions of genetic material.

The trend is plain to see in any of our "breeds". We take from a large genetic base the traits we want and then only breed to those dogs. . .continuing to narrow the gene pool as years go on and selective breeding practices continue.

Every single genetic model for each of our dog breeds looks like a big funnel. . .or bottleneck.

Ok, Ill have to bite on this one.VC I dont always agree with you but on this I totally agree.I love the GSD breed but I want "working dogs".Im at the point now where Im looking for my own breeding stock to produce my own working dogs in a few years.It will likely be a cross of Mal,GSD and Dutch.However I wont breed until I find just the right dogs.My point is I think one of these days were going to have to decide whether we are going to produce GSDS or working dogs.The GSD breed may survive another hundred years but the traits we "must" have in a GSD to work effectively probably wont without some outside blood.I mean I see 2-2 linebreeding more and more to try and get those traits.Where else is left to go?BTW .. for the dogs I will produce down the road I could care less about papers.No Im not going to try and make any money from dogs.For me its all about having the best dogs.I wish I could rely on GSD breeders to produce this kind of dog from now on but I just dont like what I see.There are great GSDs and great breeders but the gene pool of dogs with those traits is getting smaller and smaller.I wont compromise working ability just so I can have a GSD.

The thought process for the funnel effect goes something like this...

I got mah stud...and ah got mah bitchus. Boughtem related cos then theyre lahkly to produce thumselves. Gonna sell a bunch of litters fromem bitchus, cos I gotta pay back de cash.

I think the redneck approach to breeding is immoral... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Andres - be advised. Southerner's don't find "redneck" jokes very funny. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />