Lets look at this differently. A man in the open in the military. correct tool, M16. Right? I would prefer on the night where I had to patrol in the pitch black that the dog was good at this. Defense, well lets face it, your in the military, how many guys do you think you have that really understand defense and can read a dog well enough to do a good job???? There are few out there period, so I would not go there. I don't want pvt pyle screwing up my dog. Bigger hammer is rarely the deal (sorry, prove me wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I would stick to the patrol stuff like finding ambushes or what ever, and stick to shooting idiots in the open.

You need to work the dog in defense. Have the decoy using the least amount of prey movement as possible when agitating the dog.The decoy needs to be an actual threat to the dog.

Why do you think this would work? Why is it when "fixing" a problem defense is always brought up? Do you think this dog is going to take an inexperienced decoy seriously? C'mon the military doesn't have that. You did see the "prove me wrong <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />" didn't you? I am serious about people always using defense to fix a problem.

Depending on the dog...age, experience, nerves, previous avoidance circumstances...it may be preferrable to NOT start defense with contact against the dog...but to start it at night and from a bit of distance...in a place the dog is NOT familiar with. Woods are good for this.

If there is no problem there, it's quite easy and fast to bring it (defense) in close. As a general rule, it's better to start right at the bottom rung of the ladder, to make sure you're climbing a solid one.

A dog that is quite decent using prey can be ruined if defense is not done gradually and well. One of many key factors is to measure the dog's defense/avoidance comfort zone carefully...if a very green and "iffy" dog gets approached threateningly and frontally, he may tolerate 12 to 15 feet, and then show avoidance; versus a sideways approach, with let's say...occasional frontality...where he may accept a few feet less. Keep track of this...formally...during your training...and don't overdo it, in expectation of fast results. Fixing something is always more expensive and time consuming than doing it right the first time.

Training defense is NOT about making the dog lash out at you because it can't stand the pressure anymore...it's about giving the dog self confidence, starting with him giving good eye contact, then perhaps a growl, then maybe a step forward, then maybe a bark...a step back, the decoy runs, and the dog ends up against the end of the lead...etc. The whole process may take a while...but as with most things in life, patience pays off!

Obviously, it would depend on the dog. For some...it's just so automatic...the dogs are so balanced...that decoys have a great time, handlers have a great time, and the dog's breeders are thrilled when you tell them about it!

First of all I didnt say to work the dog in defense incorrectly. I also didnt say to find the worst decoy possible. I actually have fixed problems like this other than just "post" solutions ( solutions that advise to do nothing). The dog sounds like it is prey driven, it also sounds like it is equipment oriented. Defense needs to be introduced to the dog( is that clearer). Starting at level 1 defense, it wont to take long to figure out where the dog is at. And OFCOURSE dont do it incorrectly and over stress the dog. I thought that was a given. You asked me to prove you wrong,, you havent even made a point yet.

of course I have never once trained a dog. I only post solutions without points. I bow to your experience. Obviously the military is filled with highly experienced dog trainers that can do perfect defence work every time. it's been this way for years. I could never hope to achieve their, and your level of expertise. Obviously defense is the only way to train this. What was I thinking? Perhaps it was that in the military, a guy in the open, where the dogs problem is at, can be controlled with a well aimed shot. So that was my point. maybe THAT will make it clearer. I am SO glad that you have all this experience training dogs with problems that don't exist. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your warm compliments. I do believe you trained a dog once! Actually I dont believe this dog has a problem, I just believe this dogs training needs to move on. If this is a seriouse working dog, wich I can assume based on the fact that it is a working military dog, that it must at some point be expected to be a seriouse working dog that at the very least can be expected to protect its handler in all situations. Its not much of a solution to just say, Do nothing about it you dont Know what your doing. If they arent sure about how to introduce the dog to defense and build from there then they need to find out how or find somebody who does being how you arent available to help them out. I would really like for you to explain why a dog working in the military that is expected to protect its handler in all situations would never need to have its defense developed at some point in its training.

David, Please accept my apology for the abuse that you are getting because of a suggestion that I had made. Jeff's misguided hardheadedness should have been directed at me.

To begin with. I suggested that a GOOD helper should be utilized to work the dog in defense. Any GOOD helper knows not to commence beating on a dog without first evaluating where the dog stands, (I may have wrongly assumed that those reading these posts had some common sense).

The initial question concerned the handler that his dog wasnt fully invested in a non prey type situation when biting. The handler sees this as a possible problem, and rightly so. To accept this substandard work from an animal who is there to save your life and the life of others is foolish. Just because the handler has an M16 doesnt mean the dog can be crapple. Using that type of thinking, maybe those guys working a MWD dont need radios or night vision either. Give me a break!

Anyone who honestly thinks that the enemy isnt going to attack one of our troops from a stealthy and tactical location is living a pipe dream. A MWD handler, alone at night is a prime reason why a dog should be able to fight and be 100% doing so. If for no other reason, teaching the dog to fight well in a defensive posture gives the handler peice of mind that his partner will not run when the chips are down in close quarters combat.

And as far as finding GOOD trainers in the military. I currently train with 4 excellent MWD trainers on a semi-regular basis. Maybe when they retire they can open a kennel business and tell other people what they shouldnt do.

I need some help in understanding some suggestions. First off, I do helper work with Brian and his MWD on weekends and when our schedules work out. I am inexperienced and this is why I am helping, to gain experience. My biggest fear as a helper is to mess up a dog. I understand some of the basic drives that the dog is working in, but I need some help understanding what you guys suggest. I believe the dog has good defense drive. I also believe he has good prey drive, but when the sleeve is present, he does not bark, no matter how I come at him. Once agian, this very well could be because I am not working him right. If I take the sleeve away and work the dog, he livens up. (is that a word, livens?) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Can you explain how working the dog in defense (or as you suggest to start him in defense) would help the dog out? Do you suggest this because out of prey, the dog gets so focused on the sleeve and this is why he doesn't bark? Are you suggesting defense work to get the dog fired up and to take the sleeve out of the picture (except to reward with a bite)? I am not understanding why you are suggesting defense work. Are you guys saying that his prey drive seems to be good and that we need to advance along into defense work? Sorry for the many questions but I need some clarification.

Any suggestions from Will or Chris? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well then, lets start with the beginning posts. I believe the second post here the guy said he was learning. Doing good defense work isn't easy for beginers, yet that was the first suggestion. Secondly, I doubt you could do any beating on a good dog. Dogs learn situations and patterns first, so why do you think no matter what a decoy does after this amount of time in training, that the dog would take it very seriously. Again, it's not like you are going to beat the dog, and you have a new guy working him. As far as night vision or a radio, a dog is just a tool as well. And finally it shouldn't matter whether a dog fights in a defensive position, just that he alerts you to the fact they are coming. If I am close enough to your defensive position that the dog might engage, don't expect to live through it. Finally everyone has their perception of what excellent is. Yours is probably just not as high as mine.