I've encountered many dogs with just about no self confidence, extremely soft temperaments (one glare would send them cowering), and who placed themselves at the bottom of the rank ladder. If I used a prong on these types of dogs, I think a few of them would have shut down. I have read of using the prong inside-out to still get a good correction but without the prongs. Honestly though I think the above type of dog would likely excel with positive reinforcement and verbal corrections as necessary, unless the behavior warranted major corrections. I don't think there is a dog out there that you should completely rule out prongs for (well, barring a dog with neck injuries) because some dogs can tune you out depending on the distraction and because there are behaviors out there that need to be stopped the second they are displayed, and if a prong will do the job, great. They do make caps for the prong tips for dogs that are very sensitive or have little protecting their neck.

It all comes down to what works for your dog. If a sharp "NO!" will bring your dog to an instant halt from whatever distracts him most, maybe you don't need it. If the dog goes from very soft, submissive, and attentive to "talking to a brick wall" when something really distracts him, then you could probably get some good mileage with a prong. Of course, one could always use an ecollar instead of the prong.

In my view, all dogs can...and most should...use a prong collar. The collar per se...is not what shuts down a dog. "If" a dog shuts down it's only because of an inept trainer somewhere in the dog's present or past...period. So, if a dog shuts down upon the sight/use of the prong collar...he should be desensitized associating the collar with something the dog wants. Thus, it SHOULD be used.

In fact, soft dogs do well with a prong collar, when accompanied by a soft and reassuring voice, plus active and "happy" body language. With a soft dog, however, a prong collar should be used with the tips of the fingers on the leash, ie with finesse. Additionally, it's a good idea to use all kinds of equipment on your dog: muzzles of different kinds, vests, different collars, sometimes individually, other times in groups (plus nail clipping, ear cleaning, belly, paws, nuts, teeth inspected, etc.) A dog should not be sensitive to equipment, and your taking time to get a dog used to all kinds of equipment, gets your dog accustomed to being manhandled...reinforcing rank and stability.

I think there is one case where a prong should not be used: a handler hard dog in the hands of someone not very experienced. In this case, a prong collar can elicit an agressive response that frequently travels right up the leash, and up the arm in a fast "stapling" fashion.

Vicki,

I don't think there is any good way to judge which dogs won't do well with a prong collar . Most dogs can benefit from them when used properly but there are always exceptions . I can only generalize and say that most of the dogs I've seen that didn't benefit from them were soft dogs or some handler aggressive dogs . Prong collars give an effective correction better then choke collars and do it safer when used correctly . 1 of the biggest problems I see with first time handlers is they can't give effective corrections when needed.

They are safer for a dog when used properly . The biggest problem I've seen with prong collars is many handlers don't know how to fit them properly and that could be very dangerous . Anyone thinking of using a prong collar should read Ed's article on how to fit a prong collar . (Sorry , my wife's not around to show me how to post a link to this.)

Mike,

Yesterday for the first time my 5.5 months old pup learned how to heel. I bought a so called training collar. They told me if put as A "P" it is a training collar if put as A "9" it is a choke collar. I don't want to use choke collar on him. Is Training collar and choke collar the same? I want to train him via motivation not thur popping on his neck.....

Any suggestions?

Rashmi

I found the answer for motivational training but still looking for what is choke collar vs. training collar??? all the website shows me the same picture for choke and training collar??? I hope I am not loosing my mind.

 Quote:

Mike,

Yesterday for the first time my 5.5 months old pup learned how to heel. I bought a so called training collar. They told me if put as A "P" it is a training collar if put as A "9" it is a choke collar. I don't want to use choke collar on him. Is Training collar and choke collar the same? I want to train him via motivation not thur popping on his neck.....

Any suggestions?

Rashmi

I have never seen a difference in wether you put it on as a P or a 9, my trainer told me to put it on as a P, but my dog heels to my right, not my left, so am I supposed to reverse it? The trainer told me no, P is fine.

I don't see how it's a choker one way and a training collar the other way, both ways there is no positive-stop, its unlimited-slip until the dog is choking.

I would just hold a hotdog by your side n have your dog follow you for 3 steps, if he does good, let him take a bite, or break a piece off, then walk 5 steps, then 10, then 6, then 9, then 3 etc etc until he realizes that walking next to u when u say heel means he eventually gets a reward.

When you get to corrections, I used an e-collar, when he walks ahead of me or stops to sniff something I give him a quick nick with the e-collar, then give him a reward (hotdog) when he returns to the heel position. 99% of the time I can tell my dog "no, heel" or hit the "tone" button (no zap, just a beep) on the e-collar and he'll return to heel. If there is a hotdog in my hand his heel is perfect, if there's no hotdog, he's 85% with heel unless we are in a new grassy location where he has this compelling desire to sniff everything.

The way I was taught by the trainer to teach him heel is put a long line on his choker, then keep changing directions n tugging on the choker till he realizes that he's supposed to follow you... this compulsion didn't go over too well with my dog, he never learnt to heel this way, and it made him annoyed at me (see my first post about walking away from me etc), the same goes for the "put the choker high on his neck n keep the line short to 6" so if he moves away from the heel position he chokes" method - that just made things worse.

Oh yeah the reason I stopped using the choker BEFORE finding out about the trachea problems it causes is because my dog would rather choke himself pulling on a leash than heel, so if there ever was a candidate for a dog to get trachea damage from a choker... my boy was it. So I discontinued the use of a choker, then later found out a prong is much better for his neck anyway.

There is a competent trainer in the ob classes I attend that uses a prong on all her dogs except her two Shelties. She uses flat-collar corrections only, and the dogs are very obedient under distraction. They seem to get their feelings hurt with a raised voice, and a flat collar correction makes them do whatever they were asked to do, fast. I would say that some dogs don't need it, but these are definitely the exception.

And as to the training collar vs. choke collar question . . . the trainer seems to be a bit confused. A training collar is a choke or a prong or a crown collar--anything that is used to correct a dog. (Lots of people would say Halties fit in this category, too. . .unfortunately). I would not use a choke collar. The potential for damage is too great and it is not as effective as a prong. The training collar vs. choke collar distinction does not make sense to me.

The difference between a prong collar and a chain/choke collar:

In Germany a study was done on 100 dogs. 50 wore prongs, 50 wore chokes. The study followed the dogs for their entire lives. When the dogs died they were autopsied.

Of the 50 wearing chokes 48 had injureies on the neck and trachea. 2 of these were determined to be from genetic factors. 46 from trama.

Of the 50 that wore prongs 2 had injuries on the neck and trachea. 1 of these was determined to be from genetic factors. 1 from trauma.

Clear?

What is kinder, a swift pinch of the skin from a properly fitted prong collar or slow nagging strangulation from a choke collar?

A training collar could be anything form a head harness to a sporn harness to a prong collar to a shock collar. It refers to any collar that is used for training purposes - anything except a flat buckle collar IMO.

QUOTE: he's 85% with heel unless we are in a new grassy location END

I pretty much use Mike's heel training, except I use tiny M&M-size "training treats" -- which work best, of course, only if your dog loves 'em the way mine do!

About the new area where the urge to sniff and mark comes up: My dogs already know that they heel until I give the leash a little flick and say "OK - go ahead" and that means they have permission to sniff, wander, mark, and do doggy stuff. I give that OK often, and maybe it's part of why "heel" isn't a problem with my dogs. If one of them starts to look eagerly at a new or aromatic area, I remind him of "heel" to reinforce that the pack leader is in charge. THEN when he's re-focused on "heel," I usually give the "Go ahead."

I don't think this is too permissive, but I'd like to hear other viewpoints.