David, My first PSD was narcotics trained for aggressive alert. He was high drive which made for some fun training. My current PSD has even higher drive. When I was told to train him in explosives with a passive response I almost had a coronary. My first thought was how am I supposed to teach this maniac passive alert when he is always bouncing all over the place. I'll tell ya, it wasnt that difficult and his alert sure is purty. And like you said, when he gets odor he sits like he has lead in his shorts.
The thing I like about aggressive alert is that if you train well it is easier in most cases to pinpoint the odor which requires less of a hand search. I got spoiled by that so I trained my dog to "show me" the bomb before he is paid. He now puts his nose within less than an inch or so of the odor. Of course I only do this in training to ensure his acuracy. During real life searches Im satisfied for any positive alert at all, but knowing how acurate he is gives me alot of confidence.

Our first passive dogs were trained so that they would follow the odor as close to source as possible, sit and then they would look at the handler for their reward (Tennis ball). They were also trained with a "show me" command so that they would indicate the source again. The dogs we are training now will follow the odor to source, sit and stare at the source, waiting for their reward. When properly trained and maintained they will stare with no regard to what the handler is doing. On command they will move closer to source if they are too far back to suit the hanlder. I have not seen any indication that an aggressive response dog will pinpoint any closer than our dogs. Most of the aggressive response dogs that I've personnally seen seem to be more dependant on the handler. Again, I've never handled an aggressive response dog and I've been around far more passive dogs. I also feel that the higher the dogs drive is the more focused intense their stare is, once he understands what you want. A dog with very high drive will often press his nose against the source and hold it there until he is rewarded. It's a wonderful site to see!!

Kevin, I agree. Working passive alerts with the "show me" factor also makes for nice pinpoint alerts when doing article searches.

I'm an aggressive alert convert. I believed all the myths about the increased number of false responses and the inability to pinpoint. Both of these things are simply not true. It's simply a matter of taking the right dog and applying the right training. We just certified our teams with the NNDDA and AMD (American Working Dog) last week. The man that sold me on passive alert was Ken Licklider. The cool thing was that he sold me without trying to sell me. I watched him run a venue during a seminar a few years ago. The dope was placed in the center of a large room on top of some suspended floresent lights. I watched the passive alert dogs search the room and finish sitting under the dope staring straight at the source. The aggressive alert dogs had a real difficult time as it seemed that they had to find an object on which to scratch. The only objects were on the walls a good ten to fifteen feet away. You could tell the dogs had odor they just couldn't figure out what to do.

Like a good aggressive response dog a passive alert dog with a good stare is a manificent thing to watch.

It seems that you can run into unique problems with passive response but there is wealth of experienced trainers out there who really know what they are doing.

I took my handlers course at Lickliders in '95 and I just finished my trainers course. It's always good to hear from another Vohne Liche man!!

I believe what matters most is the primary reward. If either a passive or aggressive dog believes that the closest source of odor is actually the reward itself, the dog will indicate as trained.

If my aggressive indicating dog has come to the conlusion that his toy is inaccessible, he will show me by doing all in his power to get to the source (he is trying to access his toy). A passive dog will sit; an agressive dog will "dance" or whatever is his style.

This is another one of those questions that boils down to training. As a drug dog handler, I want to know exactly which locker, which storage shed etc. I have to write the search warrant and affidavit after all!

Any dog that will sit, will indicate just as clearly in an agressive fashion. Any dog that indicates agressively, as long as it has a reliable "show me", will indicate as clearly passively.

The practical issue, in my experience, is that primary/agressive dogs believe that they can extract their toy out of whatever hiding spot. Passive dogs require the additional "show me" response in order to pinpoint. Write the warrant for locker 23 or 24?? Better have the additional training.

The combination of "primary" and "agressive" are the clearest and most precise indicators to read in my experience. Can a primary/passive dog be just as accurate? Only with additional training.

The combination of a passive and aggressive response is also something that is not new, however, in my opinion it is absolutely not an option when training explosives detectors. Any aggressive response for an explosives detector is a failure in training. More importantly, it could be a disaster in real life. The "show me" is cute, but like one poster expressed, during a real search, a response is a response and it them becomes time for the EOD Techs to do thier thing.

DFrost

A properly trained passive dog does not require a "show me" command. Even my original dog would pinpoint odor before he sat. He would then turn and look at me. If I was watching my dog like I should have been I wouldn't even need a "show me". That was in case you missed the initial response. Now the training has been refined so that they sit and stare. I personally haven't seen aggressive response dogs come any closer. But then I have seen very few aggressive dogs that still thought the "toy" was in the odor source. Most of the ones I see scratch a few times and look for the handler. Not that they are not as good as passive but it's the same problem that people mention about passive dogs. Like you said it comes down to training. Especially your maintenance training. Any dog will lose his stare or the intensity of his scratch if the maintenance training is not done consistantly and correct. I was taught to encourage the dog to be independant. This is started as soon as the dog is secure in his odor recognition. By the time the handlers start working with the dogs, the dogs have already been taught to search on their own and with the handler detailing. They've learned that it's "odor=sit=reward" no matter what the handler is doing.

Kevin,
The reason you see very few agressisve response dogs who think the toy is still the odor source is because of poor dog handling. It only takes a couple of times for the handler to pay the dog where the dog sees the reward coming before they figure out what the deal is, after that they look to the handler and the alert drops off considerably.
Ive learned that pinpointing with a passive dog takes more training to get the dog closer to source, it is just too easy for a dog to get lazy and sit as soon as he hits odor then expect a reward. Prior to attending a drug school with my previous PSD I spent a month working with him aggressively digging out his toy. This was a lot of fun and built his focus. When it came school time and he learned the game, he would hammer the alert. Reward presentation can maintain that intensity or destroy it. If during a real search where I couldnt reward the dog without being seen I would give lots of verbal praise and play with the dog, that way I wasn't "Busted". I know its difficult but thats what good dog handling is about.
Now, Im not saying one is better than the other, Im just agreeing that passive requires more work and attention to detail. For me the work isnt an issue as long as I get to handle a dog for a living.

I do not like the show me command that I see people doing. I think it trains frustration into the dog.Ive seen agressive alert dogs that have learned to bark and bite at the find because of it. Ive seen passive dogs learn to stare at their handler and bark because of it.It also becomes a cue to the dog that you are getting ready to give them the reward.To prove my point Ive asked handlers to say "show me" as soon as they see the dog slow down and the dog immediately lied,with no dope around.Its not needed if the dog is trained properly and maintained properly.