The most important part of what you said was when you BEGIN to see problems. Im glad to hear you stay on top of things. I see to many officers that dont seem to understand the difference in training and real world. Training is preperation for real world so you need to treat it as training . That means dont get lazy and develop bad habits and dont let pride get in the way when you have to go back to basics. If your pride gets in the way of training then you dont need a dog.Theres nothing better than a LEO that loves to train their dog and really wants to understand what and why and how. Theres nothing worse than a lazy one that doesnt want to learn and just wants to hang around and talk and joke and not be involved in training.

Do you think that I should try doing only Primary hides in training, and that way in real situations the dog assumes the reward is there. Maybe just never get away from them except on occasion?.

I think that if you went to an all primary reward system you, the handler will suffer. Knowing where all the finds are is going to hurt your search patterns. I think you would beging to unintentionally signal to your dog where the hides are either by pointing them out or by leaving your hand in the find area too long, or by stopping your walking. The dog would begin to say "Why work for the find, mom will show me where it is." Detection training is just as important for the handler as it is for the dog.

You can mix things up in training by having an experienced handler reward your dog for you from a different angle as well so the dog does not see the reward coming into the source of the odor.

Why I'm at it, I've started to notice two things in training that I don't like when it comes to rewards:

One.. I see handlers rewarding the dog away from the find.... throwing it to the ground feet away from the source of the odor, pulling the dog from the find.

And two... this need to rocket the reward at 100 Mph. towards the source of the odor, creating a ton of movement that pulls the dog's focus away from the odor and back at the handler.

I like to mix up my rewards..... I'll keep it in different pockets, inside my shirt, behind my back, behind my neck...always a different spot. I'll toss it from behind, from the side, drop it from above... trying to stay away from establishing a routine with the reward.

I agree with most of what Ptlmn. Grubb says but I differ a little in the reward. I have the reward more structured to eliminate the temptations to get lazy and reward wrong. I have the handler stand squarely behind the dog and keep the dog focused on the find with one hand and dropping the ball over the head with the other hand. If it is a primary reward it looks exactly the same way except the hand you use to keep the dog focused will go ahead and expose the hidden primary. The dog isnt able to read any body language because they both look just alike. Plus if they learned the primary finds first its easy to keep the focus on it if you plan on rewarding yourself.When Im trying to accomplish is keeping the dog focused on the find and not be looking to the handler for body language or the reward.

I think that if you went to an all primary reward system you, the handler will suffer. Knowing where all the finds are is going to hurt your search patterns.

There is nothing that says that you have to know where the primary finds are at!!!!!
Also, since the handler is not doing the rewarding ....aaauugh I hate that word but I'll use it here..... then the value of the handlers behavior is diminished accordingly. If you return to basics and make sure the dog understands that its actions are really and truly flushing the prey without the assistance of the handler you won't create a problem with the handler communicating the find to the dog. The HAS TO BELIEVE that it is its actions that cause the prey item to appear and that the handler is simply along for the ride...with blinders on.
Don't try to middle of the road this to problem solve. It will be a patch but not a fix.

To keep from getting confused:
1. Everyone agrees that all primary finds may not be in my best interest here.
2. The dog should be totally focused on the find before giving the toy/even for just a short period.
3. The dog should believe that the focus and alert makes the toy appear from heaven.
4. I don't always have to place the find to have a primary one, and I don't always have to be the one to give the toy.

I do agree about the force of the reward making it distract the dog, and if it bounces it rewards away from the odor.

Do I need to back up even further where the dog sees the placement of the toy (with the odor)? Because it's not the search that I have problems with.

Kevin: Are you from Kansas?

Sometimes we try to make this too difficult. If the dog is only rewarded for a proper response, the actions of the handler should not matter. One way of doing this is making sure the handler does not know where the targets are, that way, the handlers reactions are immaterial to what the dog does. Handlers knowing where the targets are, except in the very beginning stages of training, or when working on a specific problem, will not exhibit the same behavior as when they do not know where targets are located. The terminal behavior, whether passive or aggressive is what is being rewarded.

DFrost

Kevin: Are you from Kansas?

No, I'm in New Mexico although I had a short sint in Kansas in 88.

1. Everyone agrees that all primary finds may not be in my best interest here.

I would return to primary exclusively for a while as a problem solving technique. I just dealt with exactly the issues you discribed with a dog team today.
This will help you set up the correct behaviors as you eventually move away from primary again a bit down the line.
You'll simply be setting up the dog to perform the correct behavior so you can reinforce it.

A couple friends of mine trained for D.O.C. drug dogs in Kansas with someone named Kevin. Just wondering.

It was suggested to me that maybe the dog enjoys the search so much that the alert brings the end, and doesn't want it to end by alerting to soon.

What do you think about that comment?

For awhile I will keep direct control over the dog and work some primary hides.

Her focus and responce time seems to be perfect if I don't work her for awhile. Like she has all that drive built up and can't wait to get to play. She is a work horse and has great work ethic, but I've failed her somewhere. Just have to get back on track. Not afraid to go all the way back to Pre School if needed.

Better to have the best dog in time, that a half assed dog right now.