Sammy,

If your dog started in a big way when he was 4 mos. old, why didn't you stop it in a big way the first time something happened...when he was 4 mos old? Did you think you would stymie your dog's drives if you corrected too soon? Too hard?

I'm going kind of out on a limb here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> but don't ALL good dogs test the limits?

It sounds to me like they were puppies with a lot of frustration issues and just were too young to deal with it. I can see where if it was handled incorrectly it could become "handler aggression".

In my vue there are 3 forms of handleragression

Fear related: Fearbiters can when they are in situations that they are afraid of turn to the handler when they don't see a way out eg like a cornered rat will attack
frustration related: When a handler is working to slow or his training is way off a dog can get frustrated and begin to nip your arm/hand which can result in real bites if not corrected
Dominance related: If handling a verry dominant dog the dog may find that he can challange your leadership, he will do so by biting and fighting.

And as to have you ever raised handler agressive dogs. Yes i have 1 bouvier, every other week or so the colour of his eyes seemed to change from brown to green. This was the signal form me to be prepared to kick his a**. Never had a more dominant dog and besides the medical shortcomings of that dog, it was the best dog i ever had. Never gave up, never failed, (almost) indistructable.

Greetings

Johan

http://webmediamusic.com/raider/forum/bw_forum/index.php?topic=614.new#new

An other board and topic but "bitework" gave a nice discription off handler agression due to dominance
Quote:

"From those that we saw, we have noticed that dogs bred out of BR studs (NVBK) displayed a lot of dominance. We had youngsters that challenged their handlers authority frequently and most of them required very, very strong correction to get the message. They were total workaholics sometimes at the expense of handler focus. I share your view that training them is more difficult especially in bite development because of their inherent hardness to correction. The training team members had to be very alert especially on the outs because of displays of handler aggression during the start of release training. However, we found them to have a lot of fight and also rock-solid nerves and can take all kinds of pressure. They require an experienced, patient and steady handler and a competent training team and if all of these are factored in, you would see the dog finish the sequences in ringsport a go to competitive levels."

Greetings


Johan

 Quote:

Sammy,

If your dog started in a big way when he was 4 mos. old, why didn't you stop it in a big way the first time something happened...when he was 4 mos old? Did you think you would stymie your dog's drives if you corrected too soon? Too hard?

I'm going kind of out on a limb here but don't ALL good dogs test the limits?

That is more or less what it was. Although I was not worried about drive as such, but more the fact that this was a puppy! A little 25lb pup, I DID correct him to the extent that I *thought* was appropriate for a pup that age, but he did not even blink with it, and honestly correcting him at a level 10 just did not sit right.

This is a post I made a couple of months ago on a topic about correcting pups, it gives a little more detailed explanation of what he was like...

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"Although I agree (on the whole) with what has been said above regards corrections, something to think about.. I let my boy get away with such behaviors (the ones directed at me, not other people) in the early months, I tried to ignore it, tried to avoid situations that would spark it. I saw him as a baby (he was 5-6 mths at the time),and didn't correct him because of it .. For me and that specific dog this was a mistake. I got to the point where I was very wary around the dog, didn't want to make sudden movements, did not want to play with him incase it got out of control. He laid into me REALLY good 3 times. One of the times my hubby had to choke him off my bare arm at 4 mths old (and all because I would not let him bite my jacket!), another of the times he got me on both arms and legs (I still bear the scars two years later).. and this time because I stopped throwing his stick. Only after the 3rd time (after I outed him off an agility tunnel!) did my breeder (and hubby) tell me "Sort this out right now or sell the dog, or the dog will kill you when he is two years old". Next time he did it I flattened him within an inch of his life (and I about had a heart attack doing it LOL).. he was 6 mths or so old. He just had (has) VERY intense prey drive, that turns FAST to fight when he is challenged, crazy prey possesion.. with the added issue that he was VERY unclear when in drive at a younger age. Only now, at two is he starting to get clear in the head."

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On the other question you asked the board, no I don't think *all* good dogs test the limits.. maybe a huge number of them, but not all. I have another male also who is nice and strong in the bitework (only a young dog), very civil already, yet with me he is an absolute LOVER! This said, there may come a time when he does test me.. will have to wait and see LOL!!!

On a similar note I have a question for everyone!

Do you think (in your experience) that handler aggressive dogs tend to be a less social bunch with other people than non handler aggressive dogs? Or is this too much of a blanket question being that handler aggression can there for many different reasons?

FINALLY!! Information I have been trying to find for the past two years. Thanks Mr. Martin for starting the thread.
I have posted these questions to several folks over the past two years and gotten some good replies (Thanks Brigita Brinac), but to hear others views and experiences continues to cement things together for me.
I too have noticed that the dogs coming from Europe seem to have much more intensity and handler aggression issues than dogs here in America. The three things that I have come to conclude as to why this may may be are as follows:
1.) Starting with two intense (well-bred) dogs (Sire & Dam).
2.) Excessive kennel/crate time (leading to high levels of frustration in high drive dogs).
3.) Heavy handed training techniques.
Clarification: I'M NOT CRITICIZING THOSE THAT KENNEL/CRATE THEIR DOGS OR USE LOTS OF COMPULSION IN TRAINING. Just posting some ideas I have been kicking around. I know if someone disagrees they'll tell me so <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.
I post these factors in part because I seem to get the impression that generally most of the Europeans interaction with their dogs is during working situations only and also they are a bit more heavy handed in training than Americans. Again, this is not intended as an insult to Europeans or Americans. It just seems that there is a big difference between the Europeans and Americans views on working dogs. Any thoughts on the above?
Thanks,
Randall

Randall, most of your post.. I just don't know LOL, but your number 1 point, I have to certainly agree with. I say this because there are other dogs related closely to my male who are pretty much the same as him! Which says to me it was the breeding/bloodlines more so than just "pot luck". One of his brothers is almost identical as he si, as is their sire. I also have a bitch out of the grandsire of my male (who is also my male's dam's full sister) who is also the same! They are some seriously extreme dogs that need putting in their place at a very early age. Good thing is once it is done... it is done. They don't continue it. (she says... fingers crossed LOL!)

I remembered when in Holland i watched handler correct his dog for forging (_very_ quick slap over head with leash), dog protested and handler put him into place/calmed with voice only... that dog would come up my leash really bad if i were handling him and i think that is problem with 'handler aggression' and imported dogs with green handlers.

As for puppy thing; i dont understand who would wan't to raise handler aggressive dog? There would be mistake in upbringing, would it not? Most of us had some form of (pro)testing, me for example had my 'limpy' came at me at 5mo when i came over him and tried to take 'his' tug (i was not thinking). He came at me again when i corected him for jumping at passing car last month (i overcorrected).

Both times he was his normal waggy tail self in split second after 'talk' and holding no grudge

What i wanted to say is that most of time it is bad handling.

my spelling is bad - shoot me <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think many KNPV dogs go to the training field 2 or 3 times a week and spent the rest of the time in a kennel. A lot of them are not used to different environment. So a slippery floor or a building they don't know will give them stress. If you try to lift them up or do things that will normally not be a problem, they will get agressive now.
I think that it is easy to train these things when the dogs aren't under stress so that they get used to these things. A lot of these dogs also changed owner many times in a period of their lives when they have to be put in their place. With proper training and bonding handlers will have to gain the respect of their dogs.