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I met a cop here in GA who said, he rarely does anything with his dog, because the dog is trained already

Sounds like an administrator in the making. Can't tell you how many times I heard, "We bought trained dogs; why are you doing so much training all the time?"

<<<Sounds like an administrator in the making. Can't tell you how many times I heard, "We bought trained dogs; why are you doing so much training all the time?" >>>>

Ya know, sometimes when you read things in a forum, you just can't help laughing out loud. Well this is certainly true. It's funny, but the unfortunate this, you are so correct.

DFrost

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Your not missing much. As a whole I was not really impressed.

Chris,

Not to start too much of an argument here....The K9 Cop challenge is basically putting street dogs in a trials venue and harshly scoring them. The PSD's are fish out of water. I love to watch a trial as much as the next guy because the control work is super, but its a little unfair to say that it isn't worth watching. The common demominator is that they are dogs...they're jobs are as different as night and day.

Howard

I thought the K9 challenge was pretty cool when I saw it, it gave me a chance to show people the kinda stuff I'm into without coming off as some psycho that wants aggressive dogs that are gonna kill everyone. Showing people controlled PSD's is alot better than telling someone "yeah my friends GSD bites like a ....!!! but yeah he's really sweet when he's not 'turned on'!" lol.

Howard,
I totally see your point, and the last thing I want or mean to do is air out the officers in participation mistakes or training mistakes, But since I feel compelled to say what I meant, I will while maintaining much respect for those officers and their dogs that had the guts to participate on National TV.

You say these street dogs are out of water being in a trial venue, well I have to have concern for a law enforcement K9 who bolts on the false start and even when he is not far from the handler at all he is recalled several times and will not comply, and this was more than just one dog, and there were multiple instances where it should have been easier for the dog being it was a trial set up. The fact that the trial was a little more serene without all the yelling at the suspects, confusion of darkenss, blue lights, and multiple officers yelling at the suspect and basically havoc all around the dog, there is NO excuse for a dog not complying with the command to return to his handler, when he bolted on his own without the handlers command anyways. Lets take the fact that this one case I'm talking about the officer was trying like hell to recall his dog to no avail, for an officer to recall his dog means most likely 2 things. One, it's for the dogs saftey not to persue this subject or two, that person he is chasing is not someone who needs to be bit, otherwise if he was an escaping suspect he would be apprehended with the dog provided it wouldn't be a suicide mission for the dog (in most normal cases right). Now imagine a dog that bolts on someone who is running and you can't recall your dog who never should have left your side in that situation in the first place, that is more than a trial in the streets thats a real civilian about to be bitten. That doesn't look good for the department, their department defense counsels and certainly not for the much needed K9 departments. That kind of stuff gives ammo and fuel to these no bite dog advocates.
I served in Nairobi Kenya with 2 dual purpose dogs under my command, and also in Iraq with an attatched MWD and handler assigned to me and I was responsible for their deployment during situations and missions, I was naturally already trained on tactics (swat type urban house clearing Etc) and was trained in the tactical deployment of these dog teams. These dogs were with me during policing situations, door to door searches, and roadside checkpoints, and in some very fierce battles, and I washed away a dog that was assigned to me because the dog went bananas when the shooting was going on. All he wanted to do was bite, the dog couldn't think straight. The replacement dog took all commands great during all types of situations. So If I have a MP or Police K9 that can't even listen to it's handler on a tranquil trial field, I'd say theres some issues that needs to be cleaned up. These dogs were by no means scrubbs nor their handlers and just watching a few quick clips of them working without working the dogs in person isn't a good judement, but when the majority had simple yet serious problems, IE.. Not outing (in a calm trial field VS on the street in a pursuit), the false start failures, and the dogs that wouldn't recall to name a few definatly rates as not impressed in my book. Let me again say and be heard when I say I don't recall a dog that was unworthy of being there, IMO it was all training issues, and this was great for the teams to get a grasp on what to go back and work on to strengthen their program. I hate though that it wasn't totally impressive, because when K9 administrators or DA's or whoever sees a dog that bolts on someone who they shouldn't be chasing and can't be recalled and ultimatly that person (decoy) is bitten that has to be strikes against dog programs of which I am very much for. So I would have loved to have been awwed, thrilled and impressed, but knowing what I know and having served alongside working K9's and being in charge of their tactical deployment I will respect those officers and their dogs as they greatly deserve and say there is room for improvement regardless of what setting they were in.

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I met a cop here in GA who said, he rarely does anything with his dog, because the dog is trained already

Sounds like an administrator in the making. Can't tell you how many times I heard, "We bought trained dogs; why are you doing so much training all the time?"

lol. u should have seen the look on my lieutenant's face when i told him patrol dog school was 4 weeks. and that was only the bare minimum to pass the POST certifications (no tracking, no evidence, no hand signals, no narcotics, etc.). i thought he was going to have a heart attack. he said, "nothing in this business takes 4 weeks except for police academy". when i told him SWAT school was 2 weeks and it taught humans how to search a building, field, etc., how much longer did he think it was going to be to teach a dog to do that and more?

Chris , I agree with you that the show isn't that impressive for working dog folks. For many reasons IMO .

I'm going to try not to get too involved here because I work with 2 of the dogs you are talking about and naturally could get too defensive about it . I can assure you they shouldn't concern you that much . Both have great control on the streets and are very active proving their control over and over again .

But I disagree with you about a recall being easier on the trial field then in real life situations .

To me the bite work and recall are the only two tests in that trial that can be more difficult for some dogs then the real life situation they are trying to simulate . Not in a sense that it tests the dogs genetic capabilities as a Police K9 , but that it tests the amount of control that handler has on his dog in a prey drive situation . The trial doesn't specify the dog must work in prey but because they are looking for full calm grips most handlers are going to work there dogs in prey as much as possible .

I always caution people not to put too much emphasis on how Police K9's do in these types of trials as compared to how they really work on the streets . In real street situations or training situations geared for the street , the situations usually have the dog changing from prey , defence and fight drives throughout the scenerio .

Also the recall didn't look tough to me seeing it on TV. But the dogs actually have to cross a marker 20 yards out from the handler before being recalled . The distance seemed alot shorter on TV . For that matter in every event seen on TV seemed like the dogs and handlers covered much shorter distances than they actually did .

My point to all of this is there is very little simularity between Police K9 Trials and a real life Police K9 situation . The only real comparisons you can make between the 2 are how different they are .

Hi Chris,

You did a very good job of explaining you your earlier statement. 99% of it I agree with. There are two very important facts that seem to have escaped you though. NO dog is 100% no matter how much training they have had....secondly, no K9 officer worth his salt would have his dog off lead while covering or challenging a bad guy like they do in trials. We do our best to prevent accidental bites and a lead is good insurance (just ask any lawyer) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> The recall issue....I'll have to think about that one before I have a pithy reply <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Check your PM's..its all good

Howard

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Hi Chris,

You did a very good job of explaining you your earlier statement. 99% of it I agree with. There are two very important facts that seem to have escaped you though. NO dog is 100% no matter how much training they have had....secondly, no K9 officer worth his salt would have his dog off lead while covering or challenging a bad guy like they do in trials. We do our best to prevent accidental bites and a lead is good insurance (just ask any lawyer) The recall issue....I'll have to think about that one before I have a pithy reply

Check your PM's..its all good

Howard

Howard,
You to have mail also! but I particularly like your comment about the recall and your thinking of a "pithy" reply <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Sounds much like Bill O'Reilly with all that "pithy" who I watch every day, just remember the spin..... stops here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are right though I did forget (brain fart) about the fact that the dog would not always (hardly ever) be operating off leash so much as in trials thereby preventing some of what I mentioned, because your right NO dog is 100% a 100% of the time.

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no K9 officer worth his salt would have his dog off lead while covering or challenging a bad guy like they do in trials.

Howard I'm gonna have to disagree here, maybe that means I'm not worth my salt. LOL. When I was a working handler my dog was only on leash during training and crowd control. I'd regularly stop suspicious persons with him off leash; I'd regularly call him out of the car when dealing with multiple suspects and I'd do walk throughs of our mall (one of the busiest in Southern California) off leash. And this was before I used Ecollars. Nowadays I advocate that the LE handlers that I train use the Ecollar and likewise have the dog off leash except during training or crowd control.

A leash doesn't give control, it only gives restraint. I think that the dog should be trained well enough so that he CAN be worked off leash. The Ecollar is just insurance, in case he decides to do something that's inappropriate at that moment.

I think that a leash is a hindrance when doing police work with a dog. It gets in the way during patrol, it gets tangled during searches, and it spoils your aim with your sidearm when the dog is lunging against it.