Jerri, going through a heat can also cause the demodex to flare up. If waiting 4-6 weeks means that the pup goes through a heat it might be best to go ahead and spay (no, I don't normally think that all dogs should always be spayed before their first heat but I consider demodex dogs an exception). Different females react differently, but I thought that I should present this perspective as well.

If the demodex is local and the owner is against "natural" methods then at least get them to use goodwinol ointment instead of a dip!

Hi,
I'm listening to all you say.
I've dipped my dog twice now. At least, the Demodex hasn't spread. There's one round spot on chest and a strip up one foreleg. I'd love to know what the equivalent of 'goodwinol' ointment would be here in France???? She seems very tired after the treatments. And my own nose and throat are highly sensitive.
Spaying : 'Tikki' was born in July. She should get her first heat in March or therabouts. I'm due to go on a trip for a few weeks just then to the Middle-East. Which worries me enormously as the idea is she would go to her breeder during that time. Stress, change...... Obviously I'll bring her back to the breeder in the meantime so's she'll have some associations and know we'll come back for her.
Another question about spaying is spay-spread if one could put it that way???? Tikki isn't particularly food-mad at this time. (She's just perfect!!!) I'd hate to see her loose her lovely lines and particularly her fun character.
Thanks again so much. Fabulous to get the info
Berenice

Berenice,

Spaying has NOTHING to do with your dog's temperment (other than helping her be less distracted and moody). If she has a wonderful character now, she will STILL have a wonderful character once she's been spayed. She is more likely to have temperment changes if you do NOT spay her due to her hormones.

You will have to be careful how much you feed her, but no more so then otherwise. Spaying in and of itself does not cause an animal to become fat. Feed her a good diet (see articles on this website re: the BARF diet), feed her at 1 or 2 specific times during the day (no "free feeding"), and moniter her weight and you should be fine.

In regards to leaving her when you go on your trip, I would reccommend that you have her spayed at about 6 months of age. You've said she is 4 months now and, if my calculations are right (correct me if I'm wrong), she would be about 8 months old when you go on your trip. If you spay her at 6 months, this would give the Demodex time to clear up and then she would have a couple of months to recover from the spay before she was left at her breeder's.

Spaying is a relatively routine and simple proceedure. Unless your dog has extremely weak nerves, she should be able to go through the spay with a minimal amount of stress. Usually it is less stress for the dog and more on the owner! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hope this helps you!
Kali <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

http://www.goodwinol.com/pharmaceuticals.html

http://www.rotenone.com/main.html

The main active ingredient is available in France, and you can probably find something similar. It is over the counter, so you can contact Goodwinol and see if it can be shipped to France if you can't find it there.

http://www.biocanina.com/public/frame/fr_prod/fr_antipara/fr_shampoingsec.htm

I found a French supplier of a rotenone containing shampoo! Search for "rotenone chien" and I am sure that you can find more suppliers. Goodwinol ointment works well for small patches of skin with light infections. If the skin is oozing or bloody then you might need something stronger.

Thanks so much for info and sites. And advice about spaying. Very appreciated.
We're pretty much decided. Breeder advises spaying after the first heat at least so that our pup reaches full growth??? Elsewhere I've seen warnings against incontinency (spelling...??) in spayed bitches. Can the spaying before or after first heat affect the bladder? And along with the ovaries should the uterus be removed? (Aiii - I can feel the whole thing!!) Lastly, in Obedience Class, the trainer who uses in turn his own three Malinois (one male, two females) alternately to demonstrate what should be done is very against spaying??
Is this the European/Mediterranean/Fertile Crescent passion for fertility, as opposed to the more Nordic attitude - which I would be inclined to put down to a long Nomadic tradition which prefers to travel light with fewer offspring...?? Implying that in US sterilization is more a norm for both animals - and humans than here....
On Demodex again: On a vet site it says that Demodex in some cases can be due to a certain deficient T cell transferred genetically from either ascendant. Plus a deficient immune system.
To think ten days ago I'd never heard of this little parasite...
Berenice

Berenice,

There is no indication anywhere that I am aware of that would suggest that it is necessary to wait until after the first heat cycle for the pup to attain full growth. To be perfectly honest with you, it is my opinion that this breeder is feeding you a line of rubbish. Either that or s/he doesn't know any better. Many vets are even spaying as early as 11 weeks! I am not saying that I personally agree with spaying this early, but it is now considered a safe practise. In fact, the only reason it had previously been considered not safe is because of the anathesia for such a young puppy--NOT because of immaturity.

One fact that HAS been proven in studies is that the risk of ovarian cancer increased DRAMATICALLY if you wait to spay after the first heat. Even having one heat can increase your dog's risks signifiacantly. If you are not going to breed your pup or show in conformation, spay her before that first heat.

I have never heard of SPAYING being a cause for incontinity, unless the vet royally screws up the surgery (which wouldn't happen if you have a competant vet). Spaying is a safe proceedure.

Whether or not the uterus should be removed as well as the ovaries should be a question for your (competant) vet.

WHY is your obedience trainer opposed to spaying?!?

Best of luck to you!
Kali <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Kali, it is most likely that YOUR vet has been feeding you a line of rubbish <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> . Here's some studies. I still think the average American dog owner should spay before the first heat just because they don't understand canine reproduction and preventing it, but for a responsible owner waiting a little longer isn't always a bad thing. I would personally be more concerned with the demodex coming back when the female comes into heat.

"However, compared with late spaying the clinical signs of urinary incontinence were more distinct after early spaying."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query...5&dopt=Abstract

"Ovariohysterectomy has not been demonstrated to be of value in treatment of dogs with mammary tumors, but it is a markedly effective method of preventing mammary tumors if it is performed before puberty; it is moderately effective if performed before the dog is 21/2 years of age."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3892866&dopt=Abstract

"The risk of breast cancer was significantly reduced in dogs spayed at or before 2.5 years of age.... Results of this study suggest that nutritional factors operating early in life may be of etiologic importance in canine breast cancer."
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2018024&dopt=Abstract

If I have another female, I will probably spay her just after or around two years of age to allow her time to mature but still reduce the risk of mammary tumors.

Lauren,

Actually, I did not get much of this info from my vet at all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It was through reading and personal research upon which I based my replies to Berenice. And, just to clarify, I never said her VET was feeding her rubbish--I was refering to her breeder. But maybe that's what you meant. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I am suprised to see the study on incontinence. I had not heard of that before. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I stand corrected on that issue. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

However, the way I am understanding it (and I could still be wrong--I am the first to admit when I am wrong), these studies on cancers still indicate that the RISK of cancer is less when the bitch is spayed before her first heat. "Oviohysterectomy...is a markedly effective method of preventing mammary tumors if it performed before puberty (first heat) and moderately effective if performed before the dog is 2 1/2 years of age."

If Berenice's VET recommends she wait to spay until the dog is more mature, then that is what she should do.

I was merely trying to ease Berenice's fears of spaying before first heat and that, most importantly, there are no real health risks involved no matter what the age of the dog (unless very young or old) and her dog's temperment will remain as good as ever.

Thanks again, Lauren, for the articles!
Kali <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Well, now I'm interested. I found another site:

http://nvdls.unl.edu/newslet99/jun99.pdf
Scroll down to page 6.

It states that 260 intact females out of 100,000 develop mammary tumors every year. That means a dog has a 0.26% chance of developing a tumor in any given year (on average, risk increases with age). If the female lives to be 12, then she has an overall lifetime risk of 3.12%. About half of those tumors are benign, so a female that is never spayed has about a 1.5% chance of developing mammary cancer. That means that an unspayed female has about a 1 in 67 chance of developing a malignant mammary tumor sometime in her life.

Granted, pyometra and other problems have to be looked at too when considering spaying. It's still not enough to make me want to spay a female very early, but everyone is in a different situation. I'd always rather see a female spayed early instead of ending up having a litter because of stupid owners. In fact, I'm almost afraid to post this info in case average Joe sees it and decides to not spay his dog and she ends up having a litter because of her owner's stupidity!

Take it I prevent any possibility of pregnancy in my Malinois pup - by taking the same care I took with my last female dog, a husky, when would be the best time to spay - or if to spay???
Obviously there are differences between neutered and unneutered dogs. Its a biological fact... Lets imagine neutering a little boy or girl... Beardless for the boys, high fluting voices, etc
Berenice