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I came for help figuring out why she refuses to sit during heel sits yet understands it other times without lead. Yet instead it seems like pouncing on me for other things without giving anything as to the reasons. Seems as though I need to find support somewhere else.

People are asking you to take a second look at how you train dogs as the first step to solving your problem. It`s not going to be a quick fix. We have three dogs in our house and they each require a different approach in training. If I went out and gave hard collar corrections to two of them they would probaly react similar to your dog whether they knew what I was asking for or not. People get on you about calling your dogs fur-kids because that shows that you have the mentality that they are just kids in fur and humanizing your dog causes huge problems in the house as other people have already pointed out. Our dogs are treated as family members but it`s with the understanding that they are still animals and not a cuddly version of a toddler. The comment that really disturbed me is that you said you were forced to choke your dog. You are not a child and can`t be forced to do something with your dog that you don`t want to. You are always free to just walk out the door.

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We were forced to hurt another labbie and he turned violent for doing what we are being ask by this trainer, but they have no idea about that and I am sure that they have no interest in knowing why we refuse to hurt her with how they reacted when we refused to continue to hurt her and cause her pain.

Congrats on ruining a dog and not learning from your mistakes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Have you ever considered that maybe you should just stop going to this type of trainer? Maybe take a couple steps back and learn how to train before going out and jerking on a choke with a dog who has too soft a temperament for it or doesn`t know what is expected of it? I can`t always get what I`m trying to say typed right so if you don`t understand anything PM me.

Will, I feel your frustration here. I'm feeling it as well. All the not so sublte comments "choking our babies, our fur-kids-son and daughter, they are not caged animals" bla bla bla!

I will be respectful, but I don't have to be as polite. This is REDICULOUS lady! You must get over this mentality you about your dogs.

I'm not going to explain how to help your situation, for many people here have already given you excellent advice.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say, the only problem in this situation is the owner/handler, NOT THE DOG! Oh, I'm sorry, I should say, the only problem here is the MOTHER!

Do your "kids" a favor and hire a "nanny".

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...I will not hurt my daughter.......We were forced to hurt another labbie and he turned violent for doing what we are being ask by this trainer, but they have no idea about that...

Everyone here is trying to tell you that (1) the trainer is not your master; YOU hired the trainer, and YOU decide whether to use that trainer or not. You are not "forced" to do ANYTHING. Don't stay with a trainer you don't approve of........and if you stay because of MONEY.....well, then I have no comment that's printable.

And (2): Dogs are not "less than" humans, Gina. They are just NOT humans, that's all. When we pretend they are furry children, we fulfill our own needs -- NOT theirs.

What she needs more than anything in the world is the security of knowing she has a pack leader who is always there to guide/instruct/lead her.

Love and affection and tenderness -- these are not bad for the dog, of course! But they are SECONDARY .... after that primal need for a pack leader.

Robert gave you a great and generous list of steps, and everyone has advised you well. I am PMing you a list of links to training articles and pack leadership......good, succinct, straightforward ones.

You can do this! Listen to these people who are experienced, who love their dogs enough to treat them as DOGS and not pretend they are something else, and whose dogs are secure and mannered and not worried that they have no pack leader.

Your dog doesn't know sit, otherwise the dog would sit during heeling.



You need to lay a solid foundation for the sit command before you would work on heeling and doing a sit while heeling.


It all comes down to this, you are asking too much of the dog right now. Dogs don't understand that sit means sit in heel, or sit in the mall, or sit in the living room, or sit on the bed unless you teach them that sit means all those things. Just because the dog learns sit in one context, doesn't mean that he'll automatically generalize what the command means in another context.

Everything you posted shows that the dog doesn't understand the command, that's why you're getting the response you are.


Back up in training and start over.

Gina
Your posts are scaring the beejesus out of me. There is a wealth of information on this site, for your sake and the sake of your animals pleaae spend a few hours reading it.

My dogs are part of my family. They go on vacation with me. I buy bigger vehicles in order to accomodate them and probably spend more time with them then some people do with real kids. But they are dogs. They do not have the same needs as people and if you don't recognize that you are guilty of animal crulety. You can no more treat a dog as a child then you can a child as a dog.

You have gotten some top notch advise here from some of the best in the field. Please take it to heart for the sake of your animals.

No one can force you to hurt your dogs. You are suppose to be the leader and that entails being the protector.
I am still trying to figure out who pushed your dog out of the car. A two year old child or a two year old dog. Either way, where were you?

Betty,
I'm with you on this her post are sorry to say a little freaky. Furthermore, after reading this whole thread, I honestly believe before anything else can be done to better the training her and her dogs will recieve is she needs to have her relationship with her dogs put into perspective, either by herself or an MD. Pretty much all other advice is putting the cart before the horse IMO.

Sadly, I don't believe Gina will be coming back. That's a shame, as she has received some VERY good information and pointers here from people who actually KNOW what they are talking about. I guess sometimes the truth is too hard for some people to face.

Of course, after looking at her web site, I can't say I'm surprised.

Gina-- check your p.m.'s

Will- you may have observed that owners who think theur dogs are furry packaged kids have self induced problems. But if you also look at those same self-induced promlem families they probably can't even control the kids because they don't set the rules to follow. Sadly some as some here find the need to physically comand the animals to obey and feel they should be treated like an animal. Dogs are smart and in my book therefore taught to respect the Human, as a child would respect their elders. This method has worked for our family for 6 years and the eldest respect their place in the family as do the little ones.

Scott Z. why does one have to physically hurt their pup at any age? There is no reason at all that there has to be pain involved to train the pup.

Training without any dstractions...ya right...where is there no distractions. At home there is always the wild animal even if the others are still in the house. The phone or toy in the house. Traffic when walking. Distractions are a part of life that one cannot get away from.

I will not ever treat the pups in our family like an animal that doesn't have the capasity to understand human language and the family unit. They are our only family and are provided for in that same manor. End of discusion.

Cathy G. ...congratulations on runing a dog and not learning from the mistakes...I did learn I left that trainer and lost $300 because of it. I found another trainer, only one in our area now so that I could get a refresher of timing and methods. Yes one pup was severly tromitzed by it and became violent and sadly had to go the the rainbow bridge. Since then I refuse to hurt the pups, any of them.

Michael D. Uncalled for. And actually the pups have a sitter for when we go on vacation, the very few times we do because I refuse to put them in "jail" for 20 hours a day with little to no affection given to them. this isn't about a handler problem more of an ignorant world that treats animals like animals yet expects them to act civilized when around humans.

Connie S. The pups all know who the "pack" leader is and where each of them rank. there is NO issues with that. Just as I stated before even children are taught who to respect as the "pack" leader. Just a little something to think about. Children were classified as property, animals when the laws were created. The first abuse case went back to laws about abusing your animals your property. So where do kids really rank? no different than an animal so why can't the sam child laws pertain to animals now. Would you physically restrain and disapline a child? Then Don't do it to a pup.

Betty W. Animal cruelty why because they are treated better than most kids are? or because I refuse to cause harm to the pups? It was our 2 year old pup that pushed the 5 month out of the way getting out of the car. The 2 yr old pup got out of the car because he was told to do so. When there is an 80 pound differece accidents can happen. As for it being abuse, she went into the vet 30 minutes after it happened to make sure that she was ok since she was limping and crying when it happened. Do accidents never happen in your book even when your right there?

Chris D...and MD hmmm maybe you should talk to others that can't have kids and tell them they are nuts. They would also tell you how sick it makes them when they see dogs hurt injured and refuse to do what they wouldn't do with a child. They would also become sickened when they see dogs left in cells 20 hours or more per day.

Scott Z... a little suprised to see me write back to responces? What shocked with the dolls? Thats ok. Just shows how close minded people are. Guess you feel safe in your little bubble you call your life.

Enough said...and after this I will not be back to a group of nuts that feel that because someone doesn't agree with treatment of animals as I do, they have to call them nuts. Who really is nuts?


Unsub me I don't really care. I don't need to be attached as I have because you think you know how the family structure is or how you know how a "pack" should behave.

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Chris D...and MD hmmm maybe you should talk to others that can't have kids and tell them they are nuts.

I knew there was some underlying problem here, and that is obviously it. Which reinforces what I said, you will never achieve what you are seeking in your dogs, because you have a training block due to your issues which I am deeply sorry about. Trust me there are people on this board that are professional trainers, very loving to their dogs, and great trainers, and guess what they are married and can't have children either. Your personal issues are carrying over into trying to train your dogs. I respectfully suggest if you want to truely understand dog training and how to do it correctly you need to seek help for your underlying problem, which is preventing you from looking at your loving animals in perspective, which is a must to begin to understand animal behavior which is a must to learn further dog training. If you see them as kids you will associate things they do as that a kid would do, they are not and you are only fooling yourself. I wish you luck with your dogs and in life.