Whether or not the dog goes into defense has absolutely NOTHING to do with what the helper is wearing or how he/she smells. It doesn't matter if the dog knows the helper or not. It doesn't matter if you do it in your house, at a park or on the club field.

It has EVERYTHING to do with the presense the helper brings to the scenario. Period. The dog will either feel a true threat from the helper at that given point in time (and therefore, go into defense) or it will not. The helpers presense and actions (squaring to the dog, eye contact, etc) are ALL that matters, not what he is wearing or where you are training.

(although the dog MAY begin to associate certain clothing/locations with defense if he is ONLY worked in defense wearing those clothes at the same location)

Yelling, screaming, waving a stick around, etc, may or may NOT put a dog into defense. It ALL depends on how much of a genuine threat the dog feels from the helper. I've seen helpers do absolutely NOTHING but quitely stand still and stare at a dog from 15 feet away and put a strong dog into defense after just a few minutes. That helper had a strong, tough presense that told the dog he meant business, was not someone to play with and was a threat to the dogs safety. Just by staring at the dog.

Some helpers simply don't have that "presense". They may yell, scream, and jump up and down. But in the end, the dog is STILL not truely threatened by the helper.

All of this will vary from dog to dog and from helper to helper. Some dogs will go into defense early. Some will withstand much more of a threat from the helper before going into defense. Some helpers have the presense to immediately put a dog into defense. Some do not.

Get Ed's video and study this subject a bit more before going further in your training. At some point, you MAY have to get a different helper.

 Quote:

Whether or not the dog goes into defense has absolutely NOTHING to do with what the helper is wearing or how he/she smells.

Agreed. We do not use apparel or scent in the hopes that either one will put the dog into defense. It is behavior that we try to train the dog to key in on. We have used these items in the hopes that the dog's actions won't be based on familiarity with the individual -- but as I said, I don't know if it really helps or not.

The dogs (re)actions are going to be based almost entirely on the ACTIONS and PRESENSE of the helper. The dog could care less if he knows the helper or not. In fact, even if you "hid" the helper in a full-body costume/disquise, the dog knows who he is. As Will mentioned, scent is more important than sight. And perfume isn't going to hide or mask the helpers scent.

Familiarity with the helper matters little, unless the ONLY thing that particular helper does is work the dog in defense. Then the dog MAY begin to associate that helper with defense (ie, "THIS helper is ALWAYS a threat to me").

Either way, the dog views the helper as a threat.

If a dog becomes "familiar" or "comfortable" with its primary helper, I feel it is because the helper doesn't have enough presense to make the dog feel a genuine threat when trying to work in defense. The dog becomes comfortable because in the end, he knows the helper is NOT a genuine threat.

It ALL boils down to whether or not the dog views the helper as a genuine threat. If the dog doesn't view the helper as a threat, you will be hard pressed to put the dog into defense no matter what else you are doing.

My advice would be to find a helper that understands this. If you are truly concerned about familiarity, get a second or even third helper to work your dog. The more variety, the better.

Thanks Scott, that sounds like good advice. Unfortunately, in my neck of the woods, it is difficult to find any helper at all -- and I'm not sure good/experienced ones exist in my area! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> We are learning, having fun, and making plenty of mistakes in the process.

Just keep reading, trying and learning. Ed's videos are a great place to start. You'll make mistakes. Everyone does <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> . Newbies just make more.

I put my dog into defense by accident once - we chase eachother around the front yard every night to get some night time energy out of him before bed time, we stare at eachother, then within seconds he goes into a ferret-like jumping around trying to get me to chase him, one night I didn't move and just kept staring, within a minute or 2 he suddenly went into serious defense, hackles raised, barking really deeply.... I immediately told him "cujo its ok!!" - he totally caught me by surprise. He also reacted this way when I ran into the room a while ago with a tshirt over my head after getting outta the shower - there's a whole thread about it somewhere on the board... and a few weeks ago he reacted this way to a weirdly shaped tree my neighbors planted - it was dark, the tree looked like a man with 10 short stubby arms, he raised his hackles n went into defense, I told him "GO LOOK!" n he went up to the tree (somewhat cautiously, but he didn't back up or run away, he went up to the tree, sniffed it, relaxed).

Rumor has it there's an ASR event in Jacksonville coming up (even though I don't see one listed on the ASR site events section, so I could be wrong), I was thinking of heading up there and seeing if any of the decoys or trainers can take a few moments to work with my dog and see if they can bring it out of him and give me their thoughts. Is this something that is possible to do at one of these events? I've never been to one so I don't know if people are too busy with their own dogs or whatnot - I have nobody else locally I can work with, we had also considered finding a decoy and having both my dog and my helpers dog work with him and see how Cujo reacts to "following another dogs lead" so to speak - it might be stupid, but my dog seems to respond well to me "doing things with him" to teach him how to do things, like jumping up into the truck bed... he did it when I first got the truck, slipped, fell, didn't do it again - then he saw my helpers dog hop up into the bed, n now all of a sudden he's able to hop in and out with ease, it may be coincidence, maybe not.

I do have the First Steps To Defense DVD, I have learnt alot from it. As for what my dog is reacting to - jumping around, screaming, eye contact etc, he just stays in his rhythmic "made in taiwan barking dog toy" bark - its high pitched and consistent, occasionally the helper does something that causes him to deepen his bark or growl, but it's few and far between.

Mike,
We always have a field practice day for ASR events where everyone works their dogs on the day before a trial. While we are usually working the dogs that will be competing for the upcoming event, it wouldn't be out of the question to work your dog if there's a chance that you're interested in ASR and might be considering trialing with us someday in the future.

The next upcoming event is at Matt Hammond's club on Dec 2nd through the 4th:
http://www.americanstreetring.org/events.htm

I'm not sure when the Jax club will be holding their trial, but the Tallahassee club that I belong to will likely hold one in Jan. 2006.
Hope to see you there!

"Dave, we're talking about *defense* work here - notice the title of the thread topic. Your comments make no sense whatsoever, and I'm just going to guess that you're confused here.
If you think that an 8 week old puppy *anywhere* should be worked in defense, you know even less than we think you do."

Will,
Chris ask me to elaborate and I did. All I'm saying is mike's dog may not yet understand what his handler is asking of him, better to work him in other aspects for now be it tracking, OB, or other confidence building workout that will enhance both the handler's and the dog's skills.

Should an 8 week old puppy be work in defense? Yes, if he got the seriousness for it.

Dave,
If an 8 week old puppy is showing strong defensive drive, it's pretty safe to say he/she will NOT be a good PP or bite dog candidate. That shows bad temperment and weak nerves. An 8 week old pup should NOT be worked in defense, that is I'm sorry to say, absurd. It may fool the uniformed into thinking it works because the dog may display all kinds of nasty looking protective behavior thats if it doesn't totally shut down. It may lunge while backtied and look very civil but rest assure that dog will not defend or protect anything except itself and probably only when cornored. I don't see any good coming from working an 8 week old puppy in defense <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Dave,
YIKES!
Anyway, I would like more info about the dog before giving any answers. Like what age is it, how long have you been doing bite work,how long did you work it in prey and what age did you start working it in prey and what kind of dog is it.
Ive brought this type of question up before about dogs (mals) that are straight up street gators with street bites that are working in prey or are biting because they love to bite more than anything else.Defense, fight drive ,,dont matter they just want to bite the crap out of somebody under any circumstances because they love to do it.