The Coppingers do a great job of not allowing the fantasy of dog heroism into their writing.
They pretty much explain the herd guarding dogs as plain old normal dogs reared with sheep at critical lifestages.
Their size a result of the optimum stride length for traveling the mountainous routes the herds travel and the color a result of the sheep herders interests.

I had the oportunity to meet and listen to Ray Coppinger in the early 80's at a lecture he did here while installing sheep guarding dogs in northern New Mexico (of wich many can still be seen, I presume offspring of the animals first brought here by Coppinger and other researchers such a Green).
Coppinger found that he could "make" a herd guarding dog from a Chesapeake Bay Retriever if placed with the herd at the correct time. Green found that the best breed in his research was the Great Pyranees.
Since my parents were great enthusiasts of the Pyranees I can tell you from personal experience very few would harm a human being. They are large and occasionally dog aggresive. For the litle coyotes in this part of the world they are like a mopuntain. Just being there and barkign occasionally is enough to scare them away from the herd. In viewing them with flocks you can see the dogs run to the edge of the flock and bark and hackle looking huge, enough of a deterent for most animals and humans.
These critters have little to no interest in running after coyotes, just for guard behaviors around their extended pack.
In the northern part of New Mexico the dog that ran out ofter predators or perceived threats would eventually loose its life to a Mt. Lion or Bear or more likely be shot.
These animals are wonderful dogs. But, a realistic view of them is more important than the make believe attributes some folks would assign them.

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I recommend you read the book, its reasonably well-written and has very good anecdotes with some very good points. A short answer to your question will not be very good, but I'll give it a shot. Dogs with high drives do not make good flock guardians because they will constantly be stalking the sheep, or viewing them as prey items: Coppinger proposes that this is largely a motor pattern/ reflex. This type of behavior would inhibit them from being assimilated into the flock of sheep as a member. Dogs with lower drives will be able to socialize with the sheep much more easily. This is the case with most livestock guardian dogs, and this is why they are not normally very good for work because we use drives to get dogs to do work. If I remember correctly, I believe there are some older threads about this that are more detailed.

But the mentality between the different LGD must differ, some more sharp and defencive and others less aggressive. Pyrennes are probably one of the less aggressive LGDs breeds, aren´t most of them more showoriented these days, and have been for a while? Ovcharkas are probably quite different from them, I guess that´s why they have a good reputation when it comes for guarding an important territory, in Russia and elsewhere, and are one of the few breeds that have natural qualities for this.

Is the Ovcharka a herd guarding breed or simply a shepherd type dog???
One of the problems that Coppinger points out with the herd guarding breeds is that they have names based on the places they are from and that often the dogs travel accross boarders and into differing regions and they have different names for the same dogs.
But, after doing some testing on a very small number of individuals of several of the breeds they all were pretty similiar.

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But the mentality between the different LGD must differ, some more sharp and defencive and others less aggressive. Pyrennes are probably one of the less aggressive LGDs breeds, aren´t most of them more showoriented these days, and have been for a while? Ovcharkas are probably quite different from them, I guess that´s why they have a good reputation when it comes for guarding an important territory, in Russia and elsewhere, and are one of the few breeds that have natural qualities for this.

Having a good reputation for being a protection dog is often very different from a dog actually being a good protection dog.

I'd have to see it to believe it.

Some one on this forum stated that herd guarding dogs arn't always they best choice for PPD. They are effective thru mostly bluff and display while fighting & biting would be only in the extreme case. can we get a link or a repeat of that?

Belay my last post, I just read the entire thread <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

I´m not sure if the Ovcharka is a breed or more a type of dog, certainly this big hairy bearlike dog referd to as caucaisan ovcharka seems to be found in different locations in eastern europe and Russia. Then there are the central asian ovcharka that lack the heavy fur of the caucasian variant. But nevertheless, this type of dog looks the same in different regions and probably have the same mentality in general.

I read in an article that Coppinger said that he believed actuall fights with predators were not common, this is propbably so in certain regions and maybe with certain type of dogs. But another expert from Bulgaria stated that physicall confrontations with predators was quite common in areas with a lot of predators. Bulgaria also has a programm for saving the native breed called "Karakatchan", due to it´s toughness as a guardian of the herd, a dog that looks very similar to the caucasian ovcharka in apperance and probably mentality.

These dogs are not suited for PP due to their special character, but for sentrywork they are very good. I remember readin an old thread about LGDs, and it was stated that their lack of prey and fightdrive made them bluffers and
only reactive defence oriented. In that discussion fightdrive,(what ever that is, seems to mean different things for different people), was viewed as the drive a
catchdog like a pitbull has, they joy for fighting just for the fun of it.

It´s correct that ovcharkas and similar dogs have a low level of prey and the type of fight a catchdog has.But it´s incorrect to assume this is components needed for a dog to defend himself or a territory strongly. Dominance, strong territorial instinct and a high level of sharpness/defence and other traits are what motivates these types of dog to fight and defend, not prey or fighting just for fun like a pitbull does.

I saw this photo on another board web page This dog looks unreal. I've never seen a Caucasian before so maybe someone else on the board can comment on the dog.Is this the breed your talking about?

Yepp, thats the breed I´m talking about, caucasian ovcharka. But as I said, this is no breed that fit the average family or in the showring, it´s best to let them be the workingdog they have been breed for. The majority of the ovcharkas here in Sweden are owned by securityfirms as sentrydogs. It´s not uncommon that they first have been bought as petdogs but later have become to hard to handle, then they are sold to securityfirms. Also friends in Finland have told me that
many people have to get rid of their ovcharkas when adults, because they just don´t fit the average dogowner/society with their sharp nature.

But they are good gurddogs outside with their special qualities, especially here in the nordic countries and Russia where the climate is quite cold, perfectly for a dog with that amount of fur.

Stig wrote:hat I heard about some of this breeds are that they are not suited for sport/policework, but as guarddogs of a territory .

That is correct.There are other breeds more suited for family protection and policework.