Hi Aaron, sorry, but this doesn't make much sense to me:

>>And yes, wolves DO torment the others. They go to eat the kill and if the others come up they lash out at the others until he is done. Thus making the others wait until hes had his fill...<<

**The Alpha wolves do not torment the other wolves. They just eat first. When they are finished, the other wolves eat, and the Alpha wolves leave them alone.**

>>Do you see what I am saying? The alpha pack leader wolf isn't going to say" he I am pack leader and its ok if you want to eat beforte me today, but just for today ok? Thanks"...<<

**No, as the owner/handler/boss/human/alpha, you take care of that little bit of business by eating before you feed your dog. Then making them sit/stay before they can eat. Not by putting down a dish of food in front of a dog, putting them into a long stay and then doing a dance around them. Good grief**

Quote from Aaron: And yes, wolves DO torment the others. END QUOTE:
Aaron your so far off base it's not funny anymore. Tracy and Cindy are totally correct! You are a total *EDIT* who is without a doubt a terrible example of how to care for and gain a dog's trust and respect. This nonsense that wolves torment each other is just ignorant physco babble and rambling on your part. I was going to stay out of this thread but your last post made me mad. I'm hoping that Ed will BAN you from ever posting again. People who think and act as you do, will always be counterproductive to what this board is all about. I feel sorry for your dog because I think I have a very good idea about his unfortunate fate.

Glenn http://www/czechdawgs.blogspot.com


Mod edit for language.
C'mom Glenn, you know better than that! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
Will Rambeau
Moderator

Aaron,
While I agree with you and Sammy that the Alpha should be the undisputed Alpha. Part of the problem with your particular issue is that I believe you are dealing with "instinctual" behavior. By this I mean that in the wild, wolves are programmed to survive and in order to survive they must eat and fend off the advances of other pack members to eat. Yes, the Alpha may eat first, however if a subordinate is in a possession of a bone the Alpha will very rarely, if ever, attempt to take it. This does not affect his Alpha status, some things are just too sacred ("the bone") to impose on. I would evaluate your role as the Alpha in regards to your whole relationship with your dog rather than this one particular issue. I would say that based on your brief post you are no doubt the Alpha in your relationship.
Instinctual behavior can be a very difficult thing to change. I'm about to sound anthropomorphic, so forgive me but, I believe you can change the visible expression of the behavior but as to how the dog reacts inwardly I think will be impossible, if that makes sense. In other words your dog may not bite you, but the apprehension and distress the dog experiences may never stop.
The fact that your dog (especially a mal.) will hold a sit/stay for 3-5 mins. with his food there is impressive. I think if you press this issue it will escalate and for the remainder of the dog's life you will always have issues around meal time. I like someone's idea of approaching the bowl and throwing in something extra good for the dog, so that he associates your approach at meal times as something good. I would recommend picking your battles and fighting those that are worth fighting. Steven Lindsay has three volumes out on canine behavior (which I believe Ed sells). I would recommend vol. 2 which covers various types of canine aggression in great detail. Anyways just some food for thought.
One more thing, I have a border collie that is almost 13 yrs. old. She has had food issues her whole life (I've had her since she was 6.5 wks. old). I have corrected her (sharply) numerous times. However, even to this day if I reach for her while she is eating she will clamp her tail to her belly, ocassionally snarl and will run away from her food until I leave. I've managed to keep her from biting (through corrections), but I can tell she is miserable if I go near her while she is eating. If I could go back and do things differently I would, but I was younger and much less wiser. I've learned alot, but not nearly enough since then.
Randall

To the moderators and others,
I read Aaron's post in the Malinois thread after I posted a reply in this section. If he has been banned then please disregard my post. I was a bit more enlightened by his post in the Mal. section.
Randall

 Quote:

I don't think teasing a dog with his dinner and while he's eating is a good way for his handler to bond with the dog who's suppose to protect and defend him. And when your kid runs by the dog's dinner to retrieve his hotwheels car, what then?

I agree. That is something where I was making the error and the use of my language was misused. I didn't mean wolves "torment", I should have used a different word or phrase to explain myself better.

I apologize.

Again, I realize i was wrong in this situation by puting him in a stay and seting the food down.

The sad part is, ALL the police K9 units say at his age he "should" be able to sit still for more than a few minutes.

I guess I was wrong. I am curious. Again, I am not trying to be a smart butt, at what age is it appropriate (KNOWING ea/ dog is different and learns, etc at different rates) on "average" for a dog to sit down and not jump all over people in public or in your place of living? I mean, sometimes he has to sit still for more than 2min. You see what I mean?

I have to go through all the replies and actually read what in the hell I had posted and try to reconstruct this post to something more informative and to get my head out of my rear and straighten things out.

I really didn't mean for it to twist in the way it did.

I have been training dogs since I was 7. I have never messed with any of my dogs food ever. I have food aggression myself having grown up in a large family. If you stick your hand near my fries, I will stab you in the hand and just about come unglued.

Having said that, I never mess with my dogs food. I have NEVER had a food aggressive dog. Honestly, I wouldn't even know if they were, they eat in the crate. I put the food down and shut the door and walk away. I hope this helps you, I feel that training, and mealtime are seperate deals. I understand why some people have their dog down or something, I never have. Just something to think about.

 Quote:

Yes, as alpha, you technically can do whatever the heck you want with a dog and his dinner, but it's better for the overall relationship to be a fair and just leader rather than a leader that likes to throw his weight and rank around and make it known that "haha I'm #1 and you can't do squat about it NEENER!" A better suggestion would be to make the dog perform any number of commands BEFORE getting his food, and while eating only bother the dog to do good things such as scritching his favorite spots, bringing tastier morsels to the dish, etc. As Dennis says, you don't want to create a dog that "holds it in" whenever you pester him because you're alpha and suddenly has enough and lashes out. It's better to teach the dog that things happening to him and his food during mealtime only mean good things and sometimes more and tastier food.

I see your point. Explained nicely. But I mean, I am trying to be as realistic as possible here. What if something form the counter fell into his bowl and you need him to move so you can get it.

Does that mean that the dog will allow you to go inside the bowl only to expect something more flavorful or to be scratched, etc?

Do you see what I mean? Do I have this correct? The dog shouldn't move b/c you wish him to. He should do it b/c he believes he will gain something?

Maybe I am completely wrong as I have stated in a previous post " dogs are not and can't rationalize as people do".


But I have a question for you if you'd be so kind. Remember when we were kids yrs back and your parents assigned chores to all of us kids? And when we were 7yrs old-18yrs and our parents expected us to do it, without lip and to expect "nothing" by doping them? (someone added that the dogs mentality at 1yr is = to appx 8yrs old)

This is what I mean, isn't there going to be a time when the dog will do things for you b/c of loyal abilities and companionship and love inseatd of being almost like an employee only doing things for pay or obtaining something equivalent?

You see what I mean or did I lose you. Ask so I can clarify any opaque areas....

 Quote:

I have been training dogs since I was 7. I have never messed with any of my dogs food ever. I have food aggression myself having grown up in a large family. If you stick your hand near my fries, I will stab you in the hand and just about come unglued.

Having said that, I never mess with my dogs food. I have NEVER had a food aggressive dog. Honestly, I wouldn't even know if they were, they eat in the crate. I put the food down and shut the door and walk away. I hope this helps you, I feel that training, and mealtime are seperate deals. I understand why some people have their dog down or something, I never have. Just something to think about.

interesting perspective. I haven't heard of the feed in the crate deal. I sort of like that method.

Thanks.