I'm really new to this board and new to handling German Shepherds, but I was curious as to is hanging or kicking a dog something that's acceptable in the dog training world or is it effective? I've never had to handle an aggresive dog and I'm just wondering how all the veteran trainers on the board handle their aggresive dogs? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I could only read very little of the website before I lost it so I didn’t read it all. It was deeply upsetting to me.. I just survived my 19 year old brother hanging himself on November 19th.

Please tell me this is just a lunatic exaggerating... I can’t fathom our real police K9 being treated this way. I can't read the whole site for my own sanity purposes but got enough from the front page to make me sick to my stomach. We are more human that this aren’t we. God I hope so… and I feel the death of a K9 should be treated the same as the death of a police officer…

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I'm really new to this board and new to handling German Shepherds, but I was curious as to is hanging or kicking a dog something that's acceptable in the dog training world or is it effective? I've never had to handle an aggresive dog and I'm just wondering how all the veteran trainers on the board handle their aggresive dogs? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Judith, kicking a dog is NEVER appropriate unless you happen to be fighting for your life. Hanging a dog is ALWAYS done as a last resort to control a dog that is extremely agressive towards it's handler or other dogs. Usually the only option before a dog finds he has an appointment with a needle. You need to read a couple of articles that Ed has written. Here are the links:

http://www.leerburg.com/dominac2.htm

http://www.leerburg.com/corrections.htm

I believe Ed is working on a DVD at present concerning this subject.

Glenn

Judith, That's a good question - I'm glad you asked.

I only speak for myself here - and I haven't (yet) trained a SchH dog. I do rehabilitate aggressive dogs.

With an aggressive dog, I will lift the dog's front feet off the ground using a specialy designed collar when it demonstrates aggressive behaviors. Yes, it is sometimes called "hanging" for short. However, since this correction is done with absolute calm and clarity, the term "hanging" can be used inappropriately as it can imply roughness or anger.

I believe it is kinder to use a proper correction and train the dog rather than have the vet kill the dog. Many aggressive dogs can be rehabilitated.

I would kick a dog only to save my life/limbs (and it probably wouldn't work either). I hope I am never in this situation!

Ed has written an excellent article "The Theory of Correction" and also "How to Deal with a Dominant Dog" and Ed's philosophy of dog training. These may help you understand where many of the trainers here are coming from.

The idea of airplaining a dog or helicoptering a dog is antiquated work. It results in nothing positive at the end.
Using a tight collar to stop "DANGEROUS" behavior in its tracks is responsible behavior in a dog owner/handler.
It's not a technique to impart obedience in a dog, it's not a way to create a technical skill in a dog. It is a way to protect onesself from a dog and or stop a dangerous dog from doing harm and begin the process of making them understand that they are a subordinate. If you cannot stop this behavior the handler and anyone who lives with such a dog and anyone who visits is at risk.
The result of that is far too often a injured person and a euthanised dog when it could have been resolved.
When done in the best fashion this work is not dramatic and would not involve much theatrics and thus less public attention. But, when a fresh handler gets a experienced second hand dog that was given up on in some other place and sold as a police dog there are times when adrenalin and the fear of being bitten and limited knowledge and experience lead to quite q bit of theatrics...like helicoptering dogs. I do not condone such behavior...I do understand how it can happen. I have dealt with some nasty critters in my time with dogs. They can scare you and some can really hurt you if the problem remians unresolved.
No one wants to put a dog down, particularly one that can do the work and do it well. They are rarities and loosing one is tough. Sooo, sometimes these problems fester and become very large even when the dog could have been fixed earleir or if a dog just cannot be fixed due to its history or character.
The folks that write on the web sites that have been pointed out wouldn' really care if we euthanised the the dogs, they generally want dog ownership abolished and in particular working dogs as they see them as slaves, captives forced to do our bidding....better dead than caged. There is no reasoning with them and no reason in their thoughts.

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I'm really new to this board and new to handling German Shepherds, but I was curious as to is hanging or kicking a dog something that's acceptable in the dog training world or is it effective? I've never had to handle an aggresive dog and I'm just wondering how all the veteran trainers on the board handle their aggresive dogs? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Judith,

I have (fortunately) never seen a dog hanged in the method described on that site in the 14 years I've been in the dog world (conformation, Obedience, agility and Schutzhund) and although Ive only done schutzhund for the past few years, I haven't seen it there either. I have seen a technique sometimes called 'hanging' where a dogs front feet are lifted off the ground (this is AFTER the dog has gone after another dog or its own handler) untill the dog quits and sits down. Never were they choked out or even close to suffocating. In 14 years I have only even heard of one person helicoptering a dog, kicking one, etc. and she was a no nothing that thought that because she lived in Germany for awhile as a kid it made her an expert. When her dogs didn't match up to her self imposed image, she started knocking the snot out of them in an attempt to get them to comply. Other than that sorry person, I havent seen it at all and I actually train with members of our local police. In our city, you can call the K9 officers to ask questions and to watch training at any time. You can even show up unnanounced to watch them practice. I have alos met many state police members at the dog park where they have admired my young male and his attention to me. I find it hard to beleive that these same people, who obviously love dogs in general and their partners most of all, would do anything but treat them fairly and in the dogs best interest.

hi everyone:
I have observed SchH training, as well as k9 demos several times. With the SchH training I wathched, all dogs were on flat collars (no pinch, no choke) and no dog was ever strung up or kicked. The K9 demos I have seen, all the dogs have choke collars on, and many times, repeatedly to show how strong the dog's grip is, I guess, the handlers will, once the dog has the sleeve, will pull on the choke collar enough so that the dog is off the ground. I must say, I don't see the point, but then I am a complete neophyte. The dogs seemed to not be bothered by this, but I did hear murmurs from the audience that it looked harsh.
What is the reason for this if any? One thing I have noticed is that over the years, they have employed the use of toys more for reinforcement (most of the dogs are young).
Julie

Julie, one of the reasons for lifting the dog for an out is that the trainers don't want to let the dogs take the sleeve to the ground. That can develope into a chewing (bad) habit on the sleeve. When the dog is held in the air, it isn't easy to chew. Our club's dogs are all worked without a pinch or e-collars but some of the handlers will still lift the dog for an out. I've never seen it cause any stress, physical or otherwise. It has nothing to do with "hanging" a dog. I'm very much into the motivational training, but realize there are a few (very few) dogs out there that require the type of correction referred to as hanging, in order to keep both the dog and people safe. Our club was started because of idiots that feel kicking a dog into submission is good training, and I've seen finished Sch III dogs make fantastic strides in converting from heavy handed, training.

Some people just don't have an out, so thats one reason for lifting. The other is that if the dog lets go it's gone, so they get frustrated and that is a good tool to use as well. I see it used with young dogs that the owners needed the additional frustration.

She wrote;im Belushi appeared on the Ellen Degeneres show and discussed his hobby - Schutzhund training - saying, "It's all praise, rewards and play." No, Jim, it is NOT.""

But IT IS! In our IPO group there are not harsh words,only rewards.If the dog does something wrong,i just have to figure out a way that he does right.Not scold him.
I have never seen a dog being hanged in bite work training.

Some dogs are though,really though,it does not work to say:no Fido,and jerk on the leash.The dog will not react.
Sometimes you have to do what is necessary to get the dogs attention.I do not believe hanging a dog is the right way,but you sometimes need more force than just jerk on the leash to get a though dogs attention.