 Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: randy allen ]
#246174 - 07/10/2009 09:19 AM |
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What is a "real" dog anyways?
I have dogs who do real work, does that make them "real" dogs?
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Konnie Hein ]
#246201 - 07/10/2009 10:52 AM |
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In the context of this discussion since it deals with bitework I would consider "real" being a dog that will (fight)bite someone for real without equipment . JMO .
As for what head shaking and growling could mean I think folks here have about covered it .
I will add that in PSD work the K9's I've seen that shake while on the bite really take the fight out of suspects . I've seen some guys put up big fights and as soon as the dog gives him a good shake the guy's demeanor changes and stops fighting .
I'm not sure what to make of this 20 page discussion . It's taken on a life of it's own like many do put it actually makes me scratch my head .
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jim Nash ]
#246203 - 07/10/2009 11:01 AM |
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In the context of this discussion since it deals with bitework I would consider "real" being a dog that will (fight)bite someone for real without equipment . JMO .
As for what head shaking and growling could mean I think folks here have about covered it .
I will add that in PSD work the K9's I've seen that shake while on the bite really take the fight out of suspects . I've seen some guys put up big fights and as soon as the dog gives him a good shake the guy's demeanor changes and stops fighting . Totally agree. I mean about the definition of "real" as pertaining to THIS discussion. I'm not a cop, so I dunno about the last part.  But I would imagine a large dog holding your arm vs. a large dog holding and shaking your arm might make a wee bit of difference.... 
I'm not sure what to make of this 20 page discussion . It's taken on a life of it's own like many do put it actually makes me scratch my head . It sure has. I missed a few days and there's no way I could catch up. I think it got really off on several topics to the point where people were commenting on one thing and others thought they were discussing something totally different. Just goes to show how 5 people can read the same words and walk away w/totally different interpretations.
But it was nice to see an actual training discussion on this board. Haven't had a hot topic like this for a while.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#246205 - 07/10/2009 11:07 AM |
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Jenni ,
I agree . It was very hard for my little brain to keep up with what was being talked about .
It was nice to see no big fights in such a long discussion because people disagreed with one another . I'm still trying to figure out though if I agree or disagree with any of it .
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jim Nash ]
#246224 - 07/10/2009 11:50 AM |
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I don't think it's as simple as agree or disagree, which is why it makes for good discussion. I have thought I disagreed with someone only to watch them handle their dog in person and decide I really liked their approach. I have also had discussions where I thought someone was really on the same page w/me only to find that when I saw them w/their dog, we were worlds apart.
So many times it's the wording or definition of something (like for instance "real" or "fight" or "civil") that leads to the mass confusion.
I think whatever works best for the dog and handler is the best and I resent the thinking that says one "tried and true" method is better/worse than another w/out seeing how it works for that team. I also deeply dislike any condescention pertaining to this; unless you have seen someone w/their dog and seen what they are capable of, don't dismiss it/them.
Side note...why don't you make that link your sig pic instead of having to open it?
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: randy allen ]
#246233 - 07/10/2009 12:00 PM |
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Randy, maybe you just haven't met a high prey drive dog yet. I have one here who growls in her bitework and has extreme prey drive, want her? I'll deliver her to you, the only caveat is that you have to keep her the entire weekend and then post your new thoughts! LOL
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#246238 - 07/10/2009 12:09 PM |
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I think whatever works best for the dog and handler is the best and I resent the thinking that says one "tried and true" method is better/worse than another w/out seeing how it works for that team. I also deeply dislike any condescention pertaining to this; unless you have seen someone w/their dog and seen what they are capable of, don't dismiss it/them.
Hear, hear.
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Al Curbow ]
#246251 - 07/10/2009 12:36 PM |
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Randy, maybe you just haven't met a high prey drive dog yet. I have one here who growls in her bitework and has extreme prey drive, want her? I'll deliver her to you, the only caveat is that you have to keep her the entire weekend and then post your new thoughts! LOL I should know better than to try to speak for someone else, but I'm throwing caution to the wind here as I think Randy's thoughts, as I understand them, are being misread.
Randy has a high prey dog currently. He adores her, naturally. However, he is objective. His issue w/GSDs in general, I think, is the selective breeding FOR prey and NOT for other equally important qualities. I think. Randy's an odd one  , but that's what I got from him through many many hours of diatribe. It's the lack of emphasis on the complete, total package as opposed to (perhaps over) emphasizing ONE piece of the puzzle. Balance...as animals naturally have for survival. As he put it to me once (not about Cassie in particular) "it's like having half a dog."
I don't think he was implying what you thought, Al. Could be wrong... 
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Jenni Williams ]
#246255 - 07/10/2009 12:42 PM |
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Maybe Randy meant that "serious" can mean anything at all.
I too cannot speak to his intentions -- that was just the way I read it. 
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Re: Head shaking and growling in bitework...
[Re: Konnie Hein ]
#246259 - 07/10/2009 12:46 PM |
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Reg: 02-07-2007
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What is a "real" dog anyways?
I have dogs who do real work, does that make them "real" dogs?
It's in the eye of the beholder me thinks. Some people talk the talk others walk the walk. Don't matter if it is as a PSD, Ringsport, SchH, SAR or even a Service dog. The Dog is doing it for 'real' for someone, IMHO it is real.
Back to the OP. The OP stated that a helper basically poo pooed his dog for doing SchH work while being over the top with 'prey' shaking and thrashing on the sleeve. Other people with even more experience than me see it for what it is, which doesn't mean to scrap the dog. (Well maybe for being a uber 'high' scoring SchH dog)
I have really enjoyed the discussion and learnt a lot in this thread as there has been an animated discussion on what makes some dogs and handlers tick. It's all good btw.
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