Quote: Jasmine Dillon

I don't post much here

Well, you should.

 Quote: Jasmine Dillon

 Quote: Spencer Martin

... I want to, literally, do every sport except maybe hunting and herding. ...

IMO, after reading this statement you made, I would say go with the Mal. The Mal can do all of the other sports you are interested in doing, namely bitework, and won't be miserable if you conciously choose not to pursue herding with it. That's not to say that a BC won't be happy if you engage in other activities to fulfill it, but IMHO, if you know you don't want to do the one thing the dog has been most selectively bred for, for the longest period of time then why get one when there is another breed you're interested in that will suit your indicated purposes?

There ya' go... Makes perfect sense to me! If the main thing the dog is driven to do is not something which appeals to you, look to another breed. Good job Jasmine.

Me?
I have tried to stay neutral.
Not going to try and read intent.....he wanted info.

I'm not even ever going to try to pick a dog for him, nor do I think should anyone else.

Just mho.

Yeah Jasmine, you should come back!

That was an excellent post. I hadn't really read much of it until now but feel the same way you do. I can't see a BC doing anything but herding. I just can't. I'm sure they could be happy doing other sports like agility but I the BCs I know are such amazing stock dogs I can't imagine ever taking that job away from them.

I like the discussion on this thread. It sortof mirrors my own thinking process on my "next" dog (that is, if I choose it - sometimes the dog chooses you as Kelly aptly noted).

Like dog's developement over time, people's interest change over time. A person who wants, I don't know, a disc dog today may change over and want a dog for formal OB or agility sometime in the future. That's how I am, and my wife will all-too-patiently tell you: he's in one of his "phases" (areas of interest and focus). My problem is that my interests vary so widely, there is no one dog who can do it all. No dog can hunt up quail in the morning, take a quiet nap after lunch, then train for Schutzhund or PPD work after supper (well, there is the Deutsch Drahthaar, but they are not well suited for the desert).

Anyway, Spencer's timeline is "sometime in the future" and he's trying to define his needs versus what a dog brings. I'm doing the exact same thing. It helps so much to talk about it, hence the number of posts on this thread. For me, the question of "deciding what you want" works just fine for today. Now tomorrow (figuratively speaking...)?

The only real solution is huge property, big yard, job that pays very well but only requires about 20 hours per week of work, and multiple dogs. There. Fixed.

As Ed Frawley has been known to say: "simple, just not easy."

A few thoughts:

IMO Spencer, your description of level of enthusiasm and time available for dogs didn't account for the possibity of kids coming into your life in a realistic manner. The reality is that dog-time and kid-time will substantially overlap. combined kid/dog management especially in AZ, where presumably you can't put a dog out in the kennel on many hot days, is going to require research and thought. Choosing between two dogs who are among the least likely to settle and who have the highest chance of ocd type disfunctions if understimulated is a significant challenge for both family welfare and dog welfare and puts you under the gun for say, 10 years. I'm sure it can be done but you better make sure your partner and you are both realistic and eyes wide open...If it is the right decision, careful analysis will make it seem more right... but go see some dogs..

I'm thinking of a mal or dutchie in a couple of years, when my boys are 6-7 to 8-9. My research indicates this might be a bit early. One person suggested I get leather gloves for the boys if they play ball with this type of dog. I can't imagine a malinois working lines pup growing up in my household now, with a 4 and 6 year old, although I imagine it can be done. And I live on 5 acres, and am very athletic and do lots of exercise with my dogs, and have outside kennels as required.

Also you need to learn about the subvarieties of both breeds. cattle bred or sheep trials BC, malinois for french ring, NVBK, KNPV...etc.

Watch the Leerburg Ellis' lectures on the impact of the different european sports on selection.

for cow dogs:
http://www.cowdogcentral.com/default.htm

You need to see a revved up malinois who wants to bite and dominate that decoy more than anything else in the world. You need to walk by the noisy crates. You need to get a hint of what handler aggression might mean for you. You need to see malinois pushiness and civil aggression and consider your strategy for its life with kids in your household...You should go to a bite sport club and see some malinois in action, and to herding trials or agility, or both to see border collies. All of this should be great fun in any event.

You should investigate what dog sport clubs are in your area and see how these breeds fit in.

If considering bite sport clubs you should evaluate training methods and determine if acceptable to you for your potential pup.

And while you are at it keep training your current dog and see where it takes you. get a clicker, learn marker training, fool around alot with the current dog.

Mostly we are self limiting, and any dog can be trained more and the relationship advanced further than we most often do. Often it is not at all about breed or genetics.

My own feeling is the BC vs. malinois debate is premature, and you haven't done enough baseline work in terms of your goals with the dog and actually experiencing each breed. This makes the debate somewhat sterile. There are limits to webboards. It is my guess that the debate will probably take care of itself once you actually start looking at what you want to do with a dog and what your options are where you live, and the circumstances in which the dog will live with your family.

rgds, andrew may

That's a great post, Andrew, can't say I disagree with anything in it. Speaking from experience, onset of children can significantly impact ones training priorities. A high drive dog doesn't know or care there is a baby in the house. Their drive is still there, always, and needs it's outlets.

Hey Connie, Randy, Katie! Barabara - you said it better than me, lol.

I have to agree with you Katie.. even in my experience with my working line Aussie, sure.. she's maybe tired or adequately stimulated after agility, OB, tracking, or mountain biking but the only thing that makes her truly content is getting to do what her genes tell her to do: work livestock.

 Quote: randy allen

Nah Mara, that's not the fact of the matter.

Let's not confuse things.
Yes, the H/G's can play at competing against the BC in herding as practiced in the US, but the BC can't even try to do the herding job the H/G's were originally bred for, the poor BC's would be lost without constant direction.

My comments were relating to getting a dog to do activities with - and the majority of stock work as it's done now - in the US. As the OP is interested in pursuing sports/activities with his future dog that are readily available here.

 Quote: Will Rambeau

 Quote: Spencer Martin

I thought it was unquestionable a BC's ability to herd? That's what I've always read. They can't work without constant direction?

Well, the AKC recently recognized the Border Collie as a breed, which means that they'll soon be afraid of sheep...

Which is why you must stay far, far away from the AKC version....

If you want to find a good BC, head to a USBCHA trial. For a Border Collie putting them in an AKC trail (which are very suitable for some breeds) should be like asking a high school student to pass and elementary school test.