I wonder what type of physical deformity the AKC will develop over the next years in an otherwise perfectly structured working dog like the BC.

Thank you Mara, as you're familar with herding you've supported my seemingly off hand remark about the BC's need for direction.
It really wasn't meant as a slight against BC's. The job BC's are asked to do is a completely different type of job then is asked of H/G's enre to flocks. What I really was trying to do was highlite the differences between how the H/G's work as compared to the BC. And how that difference translates into producing an entirely different animal and the expections one needs get straight if bringing one or the other into your home.

No slight intended against the noble BC.

You know I think all this family talk really kind of settles a few matters for me. I really was incorporating my whole lifestyle into my selection process, except I wasn't really considering what having the kids around will do. It's been a slow realization, almost painful, but I think should not partake in bite sports until my kids are over 10 and I can rely on a little more maturity around dogs. Otherwise I would just never feel very comfortable about my "pack" situation.

That sort of just pushes any dog that has been breed for protection work out. My wife also agrees, which means a lot for me. I think this whole AZ BC rescue will be a good start with introducing myself to these dogs (I know the temperament of a well bred herding BC will be a little different). Just to make myself a little more clear about the sports I will participate in; flyball, agility, obedience, dock jumping, maybe even some herding and hunting sports. I'm not limiting myself exclusively but for now that's what I've been researching.

Are there any breeds you all would consider in the realm of a BC, within all of these parameters. I really! really! love Border Collies but I'm just trying to keep my options open.

Thanks for all of your opinions and help. This is unbelievably helpful.

I think you should narrow down what you'll participate in also, at least in the beginning. You may not find it so easy to do so many things at once while you are trying to learn.

 Quote: steve strom

I think you should narrow down what you'll participate in also, at least in the beginning. You may not find it so easy to do so many things at once while you are trying to learn.

Well for sure flyball, and obedience. I am going to try to train the rest but not sure how far I will go. Sorry I should've been more specific!

With the flyball, agility, obedience and dock jumping you have a great little candidate already. You might not take home any medals or big titles, but you have a medium sized dog that is very focused on you even at a young age. I did Dockdogs with my girl, she wasn't great at it, but we had an absolute blast.

What I learned from it mostly though is that the time, attention, and work you do with your dog when training and participating in a sport like that will make any dog shine!

I would start exploring these activities with the dog you have, learn which ones you really enjoy and then choose your next dog from there.


A well bred field lab, a jack russell, a standard poodle, and yes of course a well bred GSD would all be able to adapt to family life and happily partake in those activities.

I might suggest a Nova Scotia Duck tolling retriever. They have a little of the look of a border collie, but would probably be more suited to a varied family activity level. We have a member here who does incredible search and rescue work with hers. They are not common at all though.

If you want to do herding get a border collie, protection sports call for a mal. Otherwise there are a ton of great dogs, even mutts who can really shine at various sports.

I'm already working on flyball with my little guy now! At least the groundwork, I'm just really waiting for him to be about a year old before I do too much. What really all goes into dock diving? I would think dogs would go nuts for it! Sounds like you've done that a bit.

Are there any breeds you all would consider in the realm of a BC, within all of these parameters. I really! really! love Border Collies but I'm just trying to keep my options open.


Australian/German Koolie

Hangin' Tree cowdog

New Zealand Huntaway

New Zealand Heading Dog

BC*Kelpie cross

BC*staffy cross for flyball


I'm not sure I agree that protection training is a risk for kids. The main challenge is that it is a heck of a lot of time and work and requires learning a bunch of new skills.

re kids: Malinois would be more dominant, physically larger, pushier than a bc. Also described as "reactive."

a bc runs the risk of heel nipping or being less temperamentally sound around kids.

In both cases the breeder needs to know about the possibility of kids.

rgds andrew

 Quote: Spencer Martin

I'm already working on flyball with my little guy now! At least the groundwork, I'm just really waiting for him to be about a year old before I do too much. What really all goes into dock diving? I would think dogs would go nuts for it! Sounds like you've done that a bit.

Dock diving has changed quite a bit since I was competing, they now do a vertical competition, as well as a speed competition. When I was doing it it was distance only. There are lots of smaller regional competitions where the dogs will run the gamut from champion to never been out before.

More than anything you need a dog that is both water and toy crazy. I am more than happy to go into more depth, but I don't want to clutter up the thread!

Northern California has a BC-like breed called the McNab that originates from Scotland. It's got shorter hair and is more protective by nature. You're also almost guaranteed to get a real working dog since it isn't a widespread breed.