Andrew;

What Ian (and in his own unique way, Steve) is saying is that you seem to be hearing what you want to hear when you ask people to evaluate your pack. Nothing that you related from this handler's evaluation suggests TO ME that he condones your activities, yet you've twisted it in your interpretation to suggest that he thinks it's okay because they are "just" pet dogs.

There is one point that you say he made that I take issue with; he said working dogs will always react differently than pet dogs? Maybe so, but working dogs will always be better controlled than pet dogs, if that is the case. NO responsible dog owner would take themself out of position to control his/her dog in any situation.

After owning pet dogs for 35 years and a working dog for 1.5 yrs, I stand by my opinion that ALL dogs need to be trained to a certain level of proficiency in obedience, for the good of the dog, the owner, the family, and EVERYBODY ELSE.

 Quote: Duane Hull

Andrew;

What Ian (and in his own unique way, Steve) is saying is that you seem to be hearing what you want to hear when you ask people to evaluate your pack. Nothing that you related from this handler's evaluation suggests TO ME that he condones your activities, yet you've twisted it in your interpretation to suggest that he thinks it's okay because they are "just" pet dogs.

There is one point that you say he made that I take issue with; he said working dogs will always react differently than pet dogs? Maybe so, but working dogs will always be better controlled than pet dogs, if that is the case. NO responsible dog owner would take themself out of position to control his/her dog in any situation.

After owning pet dogs for 35 years and a working dog for 1.5 yrs, I stand by my opinion that ALL dogs need to be trained to a certain level of proficiency in obedience, for the good of the dog, the owner, the family, and EVERYBODY ELSE.

I agree Duane,

In some ways I did "cherry pick" some of his obsevations but not in the direction you probably think of,it is the way that the advice is given and the mannerisms in which it is portrayed and put across that will best influence the person you are trying to educate that is important because this is more likely to achieve what should be the common goal,that is to end up with better controlled and behaved dogs which is an attribute dog trainers should pay attention to.Whilst alot of information imparted to me by my friend was quite similar to that of posters here it was more clear and easier to accept because for one he mixed in some positives with the negatives.If people care to research just about how common it is to have 4 neapolitans living together the way mine do,I am not referring to anything in relation to their behaviours outside the home,but simply that they all live indoors ,sleep on the same bed,eat at the same time together,you will have realised that this situation is the "exception not the rule" and this is not a point meant to boost my egoe I would hope that people realise its not as much about me and more about dogs.

On more than a couple of occaisions it has been pointed out that this site is predominantly about working related training.When in fact if members care to actually read the wealth of information contained on this site most of it actually is not and there is alot of very good information on ALL parts of dog ownership and as I have shown I have referred others to this site based on exactly that fact.Having read most of the information and articles contained within this site particularly the Q&A sections it is clear to see the opposite is true.One of the things that I found most impressive was the section on marker training ,something I always called "clicker training" where the author of the site was gracious to the point of not only including extensive details of this type of training, but admitted to how his own opinion of this sort of training had completely changed,most admirable .

Parts of what I did not include from the time spent with my friend related to his comments about the way people sometimes posted here which I considered inappropriate and inflamatory and serving no positive or practical purpose and if I were simply concerned about boosting my egoe I would not have expressed to him,"nicely" that I considered that sort of attitude not good or helpful.

I was greatful for the time and consideration he afforded me and it was good to have someone here to evaluate things fully not only based on short video clips which I accept is not always the best way of showing the full picture,none of us are perfect and know everything.

nice paragraphs . . . thx

On Thursday I received a phone call from the police dog trainer that had kindly visited me and my pack to help me improve the control I have with them.He gave me the telephone number of a lady ,local to me ,that he knew personally and tho he said that for him and the way he trains dogs her methods would not be for him,he was confident from feed back he had received from others he had referred to her and knowing her methods from their conversations with each other,that she would be ideally suited to help with my control and interpretation issues he believed I had.So I decided to call and explained that my aim was to improve the basic obedience of my dogs.During our conversation I asked her to look at some of the videos I had on you tube which highlighted
the recall problems I wanted to correct.Later that day she sent me an email and mentioned she had viewed some of the videos in particular the one with the horses which I now accept shows the lack of control particularly with recall.I have researched this lady and tho her fees are not cheap ,I have decided to engage her.Below is a copy of the email she sent after our phone call:

N Brown

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Hi Andrew

Thank you for your call just now, It was lovely to speak with you.
I just had a look at a couple of the videos on your tube, i loved the one with the horses, they looked so relaxed and at peace around your pack which is a great sign of a balanced pack. Most horses would have a felt scared around a pack of dogs like yours but they just stood there nice and happy! Such a pleasure to see.

I have attached my brochure, please do look through at all the programs and see which one suits you most.
I am sure I can help to make some improvements with your pack and the general feelings surrounding the grief you get off other dog owners. Being armed with the education that I can provide you on the Canine species will ultimately give you the confidence you are looking for.

Please do contact me again, should you wish to go ahead with one of my programs and I will be overjoyed to come and work with you all.


Kind Regards,

Nikki Brown
UK Dog Whisperer

http://www.nikki-brown.com

She gave me the details of a video on youtube which ,when I watched it,I found amazing ,not to mention so cute,particularly impressed with the part of the video at 7.34 mins

http://youtu.be/q8FfNQ_E0l0

I dont think I will be able to achieve quite the level of this dog but if I can get my lot to anything close that would certainly be an improvement.

I have very mixed feelings about self professed dog psychologists, and while CM's book 'Be the pack leader' is my most well thumbed book, I have a healthy dose of skepticism regarding the raft of dog psychology gurus emerging in his wake.

During the dark and final days when Harry was alive, I was desperate to find some answers to his rapid and, and to me, inexplicable descent into raging aggression, and I contacted another 'UK dog whisperer' and one of her first comments to me was that training was alien to dogs, and that it was all about 'balancing the pack' and how she was certain she could turn the problem around, (for an eye watering fee) but I was clinging onto sanity at that time, and actually made an appointment for her to come to see us, but in the end, my darling and tortured boy was way beyond any type of balancing or whispering, and I am certain, he would have attacked her if I had let her anywhere near him.

If you are having concerns about aggression Andrew, consult a professional and accredited trainer, if your pack are not aggressive and you are simply wanting to work on recall and control, take full advantage of all the real expertise available here for free, better still, buy the tapes, books and videos that have been proven and endorsed by serious dog people.

If all you are seeking is validation that your pack is within your control when out and about in public, and around other people, farm animals and any dogs you will come across when walking them, I think you are going to have to be satisfied with your own assurances, because the experienced and serious dog people here, are probably going to become less inclined to take part in this post, until you can prove that you are digesting their collective concerns and advice, and acting on it.

The people here know dogs.

What is so amazing about this video? Endless dog tricks. Well, I guess since Carson is off the air, someone's gotta air them. I had to skip to 7:34, which was two parakeets sitting on a dog's nose. Some trick, but that's all the video was; 8 minutes of useless dog tricks (unless you're in a circus sideshow). I'll admit, this particular dog has a strong aptitude, and knows a lot of tricks to impress kids, but I did not see one thing in this video that proves that anyone can teach or enforce obedience. I fail to see how this illustrates any of the points that this behaviorist is trying to sell you on. I might not have the time to teach all of those tricks to my dog, but she knows some of them, and could learn the rest.

If I have this right, you called her because, after having it pointed out to you numerous times, you realized from the horse video that your recall was insufficient. Your response from her was that it's a lovely video??!! The horses not running off was because they fed off the balance of your pack?

You two were meant for each other. Make sure you tip her a couple hundred extra pounds when you pay her.

Why reinvent the wheel? Why not take each dog individually and work on it's recall until it's bomb proof?

I for one don't think that you can train a "pack". Unless you are talking about a pack of hounds on huge open ground that you can get ahead of with a horse or 4-wheeler, and then you need a whip and there is nothing civilized about it, PETA would not approve.
I mean, you can't be the pack leader when physically you are in the back, following the action rather than controlling or directing it.

 Quote: tracey holden

I have very mixed feelings about self professed dog psychologists, and while CM's book 'Be the pack leader' is my most well thumbed book, I have a healthy dose of skepticism regarding the raft of dog psychology gurus emerging in his wake.

During the dark and final days when Harry was alive, I was desperate to find some answers to his rapid and, and to me, inexplicable descent into raging aggression, and I contacted another 'UK dog whisperer' and one of her first comments to me was that training was alien to dogs, and that it was all about 'balancing the pack' and how she was certain she could turn the problem around, (for an eye watering fee) but I was clinging onto sanity at that time, and actually made an appointment for her to come to see us, but in the end, my darling and tortured boy was way beyond any type of balancing or whispering, and I am certain, he would have attacked her if I had let her anywhere near him.

If you are having concerns about aggression Andrew, consult a professional and accredited trainer, if your pack are not aggressive and you are simply wanting to work on recall and control, take full advantage of all the real expertise available here for free, better still, buy the tapes, books and videos that have been proven and endorsed by serious dog people.

If all you are seeking is validation that your pack is within your control when out and about in public, and around other people, farm animals and any dogs you will come across when walking them, I think you are going to have to be satisfied with your own assurances, because the experienced and serious dog people here, are probably going to become less inclined to take part in this post, until you can prove that you are digesting their collective concerns and advice, and acting on it.

The people here know dogs.

If I am honest,I really only applied ,predominantly, the "whisper " techniques used by people like CM.Which enabled me to achieve a situation where I have a pack of 4 neapolitan mastiffs,2 males and 2 females,that are harmonious amongst eachother and able to always sleep together,eat together and have free unsupervised run of the whole house(they are never allowed upstairs and natrually dont ever try to go upstairs even when I am not around) and all this is just normal living to them without segregation and they are a close nit bunch and are most contented being together.That being said,this forum has made me realise that this type of rearing on its own ,is not enough.It has enabled their at home living to be trouble free and easy for me but their level of obedience is somewhat lacking.I know many will disagree but I believe that creating this universal state of mind makes thier reactions to any situation more predictable but does not provide the control that a more structured and regimented obedience training gives.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/Image0215.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/Image0155.jpg

Tracey I think you will agree ,that having a pack of 4 of any mastiff breed living this way as part of their normal day to day living without ever having any agression issues ,is the exception amongst owners of multiple dogs of this sort of breed, and not the rule.I do however accept that this is not sufficient as a stand alone approach.

 Quote: Betty Landercasp

Why reinvent the wheel? Why not take each dog individually and work on it's recall until it's bomb proof?

I for one don't think that you can train a "pack". Unless you are talking about a pack of hounds on huge open ground that you can get ahead of with a horse or 4-wheeler, and then you need a whip and there is nothing civilized about it, PETA would not approve.
I mean, you can't be the pack leader when physically you are in the back, following the action rather than controlling or directing it.

What you say may turn out to be absolutely right,but I am going to put as much effort and time ,which may require the assistance of more than just one type professional to achieve a solid pack recall and even then it may still turn out to be not possible but one can but try as hard as one can to achieve a required goal.

I do work with the dogs individually and really have only the young female that falls short on recall in a one on one setting.Within their home grounds I can achieve a collective recall with close to 100% success.It is only when they are outside of their own home when this seems to be thus far not as achieveable so I am using more distraction based recall training with them individually outside of the home.

I agree 100% with Betty: "Why reinvent the wheel? Why not take each dog individually and work on it's recall until it's bomb proof? I for one don't think that you can train a "pack"."