Reinier,
I understand what you are saying, but it strikes me as odd that it *only* works in RSA.
The Germans have been doing serious dog breeding for what, 75 years now with access to excellent, serious dogs for breeding and have never been able to approach those figures of 80 - 90% in a litter. And the German attention to breeding and testing is, well, Teutonic in nature.

Just odd how they were unable to get those high figures using so many generations of breeding, yet ya'll could in a much shorter time.

1) It's a commercial/economics issue. The germans are more interested in the Show/Sport venue than in selling to Police or Military as a primary source of income. As support, a dog can compete in their sport(s) (SchH/Siegers, etc) as many times as the owner wants, versus KNPV, eg where the dog can compete in each level only once. The relevance of that is that after the dog completes his KNPV titles he can only be sold to a Police/Military/Security, or kept as a personal dog. With Schutzhund...the "fame" can continue. With Czech dogs perhaps the issue WAS a bit different, because it is said they bred (past tense) for performance in MANWORK. But their fame was once established, and their dogs are sliding down the sport path (high drive stuff) as well.

2) Customized breeding/training is anti-economical.

3) The percentages...are interesting to analyze: 4 out of 5 is 80%...that's doable on a limited basis. Geel's point is (IMO) that the results (obtaining worthy street dogs) are better if you use street working dogs as a breeding base, than if you use sport dogs...as opposed to trying to pick out working dogs from sport bred litters.

People (breeders/vendors/trainers) get more money (as a rule) for sport dogs with a pedigree vs unpapered police dog candidates that are not as high (prey) drive or as sharp, as the sport dogs. There are exceptions...which in my mind confirm the rule.

High drive/sharp dogs get more points in sport...but they don't respond to high stress that well and the "get serious" at an older. They are easier to work with a toy or food reward, which is an easy way to train, and thus are much MORE SELL-ABLE.

There is nothing going on out there, that would make a concentrated effort to breed, raise, train (customized) PSD candidates feasible on a well publicized, large scale basis. That approach is doomed to remain obscure <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Andre, have you been to Germany or the Netherlands?

Yes. And you?

Good then, which working line breeders gave you the impression that they are more interested in breeding for show and sport than they are in breeding real working dogs?

Who specifically?


Frankly, when I was in Germany this summer I did not get that impression from anyone I spent time with. To a man (or woman) the breeders and people involved in rearing pups wanted truely hard dogs who were capable of real work. The training techniques were also geared toward training a serious dog, not a "sport" dog. . .even though these people were training for Schutzhund. It was a source of pride for people to say that so-and-so's dog was working for the military or the local police. A good number of the top BSP trainers also have dogs who are their street K9s. So there really isnt' a huge disparity between what makes a good street dog and what makes a good sport dog over there.

Maybe I just managed to find the groups of people more interested in real working dogs. . .and I missed the sport/show people who wanted to market sport dogs rather than real working dogs?

Maybe.

By the way, I didn't imply that the same breeder breeds for show AND sport. My sentence implies that most breeders breed for show OR sport.

Regarding your recent trip, let's say you saw ten to twenty breeders, and 100 dogs (busy, busy). You looked for...and found...the best. You are confirming the rule by noting the exceptions. I'm quite sure you didn't go to Germany to waste your time with the masses, right?

There are hundreds of breeders. And thousands of dogs. The numbers speak clearly. The vast majority of GSD dogs in Germany are bred for either the sport crowd, the pet crowd or the show crowd. The dogs that excel in sports get bred more, command higher prices, their offspring are scrutinized more closely, etc., etc.

But that's really beside the point, which specifically is that there are VERY FEW dog programs that breed specifically for PSD's using PSD's, and train them for becoming PSD's from early on. Furthermore, I will not specifically name in an implied derisive manner anyone that has been kind enough to be hospitable to me, specifically in a public forum.

I can't understand why there's so much trite argument about something evident. There are more constructive avenues for this discussion...such as "Specifically, which breeders concentrate on PSD candidates?"

Lastly, of course it's a source of pride for breeders of sport dogs to have a few dogs doing the really serious stuff. It's an excellent marketing point. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Martin i concur with what you had said, we are on the same track - imo - the point was well raised, clear and to the point, and debated to exhaustion. I am not going to engage in idle talk and debate about whose is the “biggest”.

What is sad <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> is that no one else dared to voice their opinion <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />, rather live with denial and be safe, a joiner, a conformer, what happened to freedom of affiliation and expression. Can, no one else see the bigger picture here, it’s not about the percentages, but about the outcomes, or is it in conflict with their conservative conventional paradigm.

Sometimes we just have to believe to see, and not the other way around. I have no problem with that either. Never the less, for those of you that had read this thread, I am sure it gave you much food for thought, and that was the idea, not to impress or make idol claims.

More ways than one exist out there that consistently render success, than just following the conventional cook book on dog selection and training. If we all had followed Henry Ford’s paradigm to the hilt, and blindly conformed, “you can have it in any colour, as long as it is black”, we would have still been living in a very one track minded world. The very same principle applies here. I choose verity and flexibility over stubborn conformity any day. It takes Mavericks (somebody who holds independent views and who refuses to conform to the accepted or orthodox thinking on a subject) to find what we have missed. To chart new course – even in dog training and selection – just my onion.

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Maybe.



I can't understand why there's so much trite argument about something evident. There are more constructive avenues for this discussion...such as "Specifically, which breeders concentrate on PSD candidates?"
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

"What is sad is that no one else dared to voice their opinion , rather live with denial and be safe, a joiner, a conformer, what happened to freedom of affiliation and expression. Can, no one else see the bigger picture here, it’s not about the percentages, but about the outcomes, or is it in conflict with their conservative conventional paradigm."


Sorry, until I can view first hand percentages like you claim coming out of a litter, guess I'll just remain "in denial" - although I'll base my denial on my long experience and observations with working dogs in multiple countries.

Will, in all fairness, I did invite some members on the board, even ED, whilst I was in charge of the unit to come over and “see”; only two did. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> They are believers now. I Guess You have to come to the darker parts to see the light –ha-ha. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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High drive/sharp dogs get more points in sport...but they don't respond to high stress that well and the "get serious" at an older. They are easier to work with a toy or food reward, which is an easy way to train, and thus are much MORE SELL-ABLE.

another thing to keep in mind...some people have the idea that because a dog will play with a toy, that it is not a "serious dog". that is total BS. to me, that comes from people that have dogs that are not capable of dual purpose work and use the excuse that "my dog is too serious to play with toys".

i'm estimating here, but in the US, i'd say that about 60% of the PSD's here are dual purpose, so these "serious" dogs would have a hard time finding jobs over here...