I see where the confusion comes from. I read those links that RC sent. It appears that ED also believes that a dog in 100% prey it barks.
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But I do not see how a dog barking on a prey object is confident?

Everyone on this list and the numerous other list know that nothing is 100% in dogs or training. We have to talk about normal dogs, not just the one you know about. If we speak of one dog that growls and barks on a sleeve and is confident then there is no discussion of training, you would just be bragging.

We all know of one dog that is different than most terms or behaviours that are suggested. Even I do not believe 100% of all dogs will not bark in Prey. Some dogs do wierd stuff and to make a general discussion about the normal dogs is what training is about nowadays.

But generally, dogs barking on the grip are nervous animals. The next question is that you might not have the ability or vision to see it, this is not an attack on anyone. I really do not know the one dog you speak so highly.

I have always taken the view of normal dogs and apply theroy to normal dogs, neither the extremly aggresive nor the really weak dogs.

And lets not get into the lets compare credentials, I was already told once to play nice. I am on here to see how others see things and to learn as most others are also. We all have our own beliefs and therories, some of us just want to understand it better than "dog barks and I give bite."

Renee Felknor
Probably some kind of communication going on between the hounds: “You take the guy on the right, I take the guy on the left” . Yes I agree with this statement. I also liked what you wrote. Just because they are barking does not mean one thing and not others.

Enjoying this post.

Debbie - Someone correct me if I'm wrong but.....Don, defense is nothing more than the desire for the dog to defend himself regardless of the reasons why...be it a cocky attitude or fear or this is my territory,etc.,etc.. Doesn't have to mean that the dog is afraid, might just mean if you don't fool with me I won't fool with you, but...you bother me I'm gonna whip your ass. In other words I will defend myself no matter what. No fear.

My reply - Yes Debbie I guess I do still sorta refer to a defense behavior when I really mean a dog that Civil or kinda sharp, not afraid of the situation just not have it. Or maybe a civil dog that if provoke will bring it.

The replies by RC, Dennis and Josh kinda in a way starighten out some of my thoughts and general ideas. I've always beleived that not all dogs that growl on the bite are showing concern or can't handel the stress. Some just like to add intimation to their fight, kinda like they are telling you how much they like kicking your butt.
Sorta like a kia (shout) in martial art or some how boxers grunt when the punch. In a real fight there is always some stress.

In most cases would a defense drive dog once he releases the bite or misses, if the decoy back off would the dog rebite? In most cases a strong civil dog would continue the fight.

My bad Josh,
I thought the quote below was you saying someone did not have enough experience and/or understanding.


Josh Lewis
To make such sweeping statements that all vocal dogs are weak on a bite either shows lack of experience, a lack of understanding a total picture or a unwillingness to accept that the statement is not 100% true.

Josh,
Our discussion on this topic is dogs bitting on the sleeve and growling.

Someone pionted out how a dog can bite on a sleeve and growl and be confident. I wrote that I did not see it that way. Then that same dog has a problem doing escape bites. I still feel that the dog has a problem in its prey drive.

Reasons:
1) Dog growls/bark on sleeve.
2) Dog has a problem with escape bites.
3) Dog has demonstrated by what was written that it would rather work in defense.

Josh mentioned a dog or a few dogs that bark on suit work the same way. I commented that I still believe that a dog that makes noise has a problem. And I am talking about a normal dog.

Josh, I believe theroy first and use it on all dogs. If I did not I would have a million therois.

Food for thoght,

Randal theories are great but what being taught here is that you can't lump every dog in one category. A dog that growls on the bite that shows the traits Josh mentioned reflects a strong confident dog.

Josh wrote - If the dog is pushing in, driving the bite, tail up and relaxed, ears up and confident and taking the fight to the man but vocal it is not a confidence problem, it's just a vocal dog.

The pinned back ears and other stressful traits would show weakness/lack of confidence. Growling or barking on the bite or not.

I'm a layman and its pretty plain as the nose on my face, and I got a pretty big nose. Evaluate the whole don't judge by theory. Living things are not constants.

I also believe that dogs that are vocal on the bite have a problem. I have always said the first sign of insecurity is growling on the bite. If you push the issue and do not change your training program around to fit this individual dog, the dog will start to bark on the bite. I am refering to good dogs.

I personally would have my little SchH dog or a well rounded KNPV dog over a PSD any day. I have trained with too many cops and 96% of them can not handle or train dogs. This is not a stab at anyone. If I offended anyone then I am sorry. Show me a dog that is vocal on the grip and I will show you a dog that will not be biting by the third round. From what I have seen of police service dogs in the U.S., I would not own one. If they do ever send one for a live bite, it is usually when the bad guy is running away (escape) and the dog usually ends up biting them on the ass. Most cops get defensive over this and say that their dogs will hang in there for a real fight...that is what they train for. All that screaming, yelling, thrashing that your helper does in training does nothing more than get your average dog geeked up.

Alot of you are not looking at it from a different perspective. You may be standing there thinking to yourself..."I have never seen that written in a book". Just because something is written down on paper or preached over and over does not make it true. Hell, they even thought the world was flat at one time and I think it was even documented...but nowadays, who believes that?

Steve Cobb