Can a child live in a house with guns? Yes, if they are carefully watched. I think this would hold true with a PPD also. Pay attention to the kids. The dog won't go looking for trouble, but children will.

Chris...Good Post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Will....I like your thinking. If a person wont commit to owning a gun (inanimate object for protection) why trust them with a live animal that needs lots of training and care. Good call.

schutzhund means protection dog. am i understanding correctly that most of you do not view schutzhunde as effective in personal protection? is this deliberate in your training? that schutzhunde are just for "play", and other, more 'serious' dogs are good for ppd and psd work?

Beth, I am going to take exception to the way that you wrote something ( just to clear up the matter, not meant in a mean way, ok? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

"PPD are weapons for what?PERSONAL PROTECTION!"


OK, jut so this is clear, a ppd is *not* a weapon in any way, shape, or form.
A ppd is part of a layer defense to *protect* the owner from harm. If they prevent an episode from happening via deterrence effect, they have accomplished their mission just as well as if they had to bite an attacker ( giving the owner time to retrieve a weapon to protect themselves and then calling 911 ).
Hope that clears up that little misconception.

Im currently working my Deutsch Drahthaar in SCH. She is my PPD for now-I collect rents in tough neighborhoods. She is a visual threat. When told to "Giblaut" she gives voice and a threatening display. Doing sleeve work among the other components though we are far from titled, at this point. After talking to a friend, a former K-9 handler (military and 2 Police Depts)., I decided not to pursue anything but sleeve work-which SCH concentrates on, and I think one she sees as a bit of a game quite frankly-though she is very prey driven and decent fight drive. He claims few dogs can transition from a sleeve to a non sleeve, but once you go there you can never go back. His Dept. tested many dogs to find the special ones and why some sport dogs dont work out-sleeve only (happy)as well as other things.
I dont need that much of a threat. If it escalates more than that, I have a Permit to carry CCW and will disarm the threat myself. I do have more peace of mind with her around. Ive seen level 1 and 2 dogs that arent what id consider a true PPD, but they are trained/titled to do the work by decent dedicated trainers.
So far, Im impressed with my dogs nerve, drive and intensity. Not bad for a lop eared hunting dog-but not her forte either, I might add-hunting fool though.
I wouldnt keep a dog if it wasnt social with people, dogs and kids. If it cant be trusted around those, its of no use to me and those it is to protect. Dont some K9 handlers I know consider their dogs family members to spend indoors with family-,I know of one that is and expects a level of socialization and trustworthiness around loved ones and even strangers-I visited his house! Aloof but not unfriendly.. A good dog is a tool but it can/should also be a family member in many instances. Am I the exception? I hope not anyway. All of my Shepherds were house dogs and friendly to guests once introduced, as is my DD. They were good at discriminating between those that belonged and those that didnt. BTW-SCH is an absolute blast and the best training one can give their dog- whether a hunting dog,PPD, family pet or not.

Bill, you confused me. Not that it's that difficult with my limited mental capacity...
It seems like you're contradicting yourself in your post. First you said that few dogs can get off a sleeve once they've been trained on one and are "sleeve happy," but then you said Sch. is the *best* training you can do with your dog...PPD included <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />? Can you clarify what you meant?

Will, what would your dogs do better than those? Looking at the dogs and training I think they looked awesome. The obedience was good, the trainers and dogs had a good rapport, the dogs appeared happy to do the work. It looked like those poser dogs would stop an attack (to me). Can you explain why they wouldn't for those of us that don't have the knowledge you do? Could it be possible the dogs were offered the bites so they didn't decide on their own where to bite and get the decoy in an unprotected area?

Does anyone have better video to post so that we inexperienced people can see the differences in the real dogs vs. the posers? I've seen videos posted of dogs on other boards that were said to be good by experienced people and they didn't look any better or worse than those dogs <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Was that black shepherd unusually large? I liked him <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jenni,
To clarify-my take on the sleeve is that few dogs will bite without it, Ive been told 1 in 20. You go through alot of dogs to find one that will and can really work, in addition the other qualities you look for as a working k9 partner. When you find one that will bite without-or a hidden sleeve-you cant go back. From a game to an extent, to a different level. No contradiction, just that the stakes so to speak are elevated-Lets face it, youre teaching your dog to bite, only now without the sleeve. New game in alot of respects.
I think SCH training, especially the obedience and tracking is wonderful. Just having a dog that can perform satisfactory low levels is a pleasure to own. With hunting dogs, few-except a hanful of Utility trained Versatile dogs, and top level retrievers-perform obedience at this level. The protection component is a good test/game of nerves, drive, intensity and usefulness IMO. Overall, it produces a pretty sound animal that is a highly trained, obedient friend/partner to be enjoyed. If more people trained their dogs even at the low levels, they would get alot more enjoyment out of their dogs. For a hunting dog, even more so. A dog that can track wounded deer, take hand signals in water and land (to a wounded duck or goose), protect car and home-and those in it, and perform admirably in the field as a pointer and retriever is a well rounded dog. My Shepherds years ago could do all this-but werent the best pointers or duck dogs! I tried believe it or not, and then got into the German hunting pointers 20 years ago. Years ago, got into Drahthaars. Not a Shepherd, but the big males can give a very good account of themselves-some German ones have been titled and Im now working mine. If anyone has any input, Id appreciate it on the breed and Schutzhund. I might be a pioneer, though I doubt it.

Thanks, Bill. I see where you're coming from. So, what do you do with an angry, territorial, aloof dog who won't even look at a sleeve (or a tug, or YOU)? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Jenni,
I bill at $200 per hour. PM me so I can get you card info!! Im kidding of course. Well my dear, you got your work cut out for you. In alot of respects either they got it or they dont. Doesnt sound like he does, so if you wish to compete, you get another dog! Honestly, sounds like he lacks the prey drive necessary-you can work on it-best to start early but might be a lost cause. Im being honest here. If the handler cant interest at all with a tug, broom, bucket, anything.. youre done. Make him a watchdog and on with life. For most people, this is fine and all thats required. Thankfully, mine has an overabundance of this which is good/bad. I recently whoaed her in full stride off a running cat(birddog language for Halt)-I know that Shepherd people think this is no big deal, similar I think to a recall or call off, but this took Alot of work. It wasnt staged, but real life. I was very proud and this cat lived to run another day. Many not so lucky and I was ignored.
So start small, try to find a stimulus to cause a reaction-dont overdo it and work from there. Be willing to live with the fact that it might not be there. My 02c. What does your trainer/decoy suggest? Curious.