Post deleted by Ed Frawley

Let me make this clear - I cant remember how many times I have SAID that civilians and sport trainers are not qulified and should not be posting to police K9 threads.

Civilians do not have the experience or the training to post OPINIONS on training patrol dogs. Police service dog training (at least in the United States with all the guns) is serious business. Officers lives can and often hang in the balance of good information.

This thread was started by a police officer about fight drives in police dogs.

When people post things like this "jeff-you're fighting an uphill battle buddy. you can't disagree with the man or his henchmen/henchwomen." they can go find another web board to post on.

The person that posted this claimed in another post on this thread to want intelligent debate. If this were the case what he posted certainly did not appear to be very intelligent.

Hillary you run a pet rescue in Holand - I never said your board talks trash, I have also never been on your board, I never knew you had a board but there certainly are enough places to allow those who care to post OPINIONS about their OPINIONS.

As far as who is or is not qualified to determine whats allowed on this boards - well I will let my work stand for my qualifications. After 45 years in dogs and over 32 years of studying protection training and working a servce dog for 10 years is enough to think I have a pretty clear picture of the how to this work should be done.

I don't think I rule this board with an IRON FIST - in fact I only step in WHEN REALLY STUPID OPINIONS are posted (and thats not often)

Ed,

Thanks for clearing that up. Yes, both dogs were taught to tranfer grip in training. Started with the leg to chest bites and moved from there. They were never allowed to typewrite all over the suit at their leisure. Each bite is fully committed until the dog was outed then sent again for another full bite. The muzzle work made it much easier to train the transfer. I guess it only makes sense that a clear thinking dog would do this automatically in the face of extreme threat during real apprehensions.

Have any other PSD handlers experienced this? Mathew??

Howard

There are lots of K9's (21)in my unit and I've seen alot of K9 engagements with both my dogs as well as seeing other K9's in my unit . We do plenty of muzzle , bitesuit and sleeve (hidden/barrel/etc.)work .

It's about an even mix on dogs I've seen hold a bite and others transfer occassionally if a suspect puts up alot of resistance . Training obviously plays a part in all of this but when it comes down to the real engagements I believe the dog will then develope his/her own way of engaging a suspect .

In the majority of my own K9s' engagements I am usually not very far behind and I'm the other half of the team . My K9 usually doesn't take on the badguy all by himself for very long . In most of the cases I can clearly see the suspects hands because they are usually being used fighting(attempting to pull or striking ) the K9 . If the suspect doesn't comply with my orders I move in tactically and help out . I also usually have the priviledge of backup and they are involved also .

Because of my experiance I prefer the dog to maintain 1 good bite because I have not seen a dog doing this hinder taking that suspect into custody . I have seen some very dynamic engagements where a dog attempted transferring a bite and the suspect brokefree for a short time .

I go by what I see works out the best in the majority of situations we will be in and holding 1 good bite has been the best from my experiance . I can see where there may be situations holding 1 bite may not be anvantagious but I just haven't seen it yet and I've seen alot .

Once again I still believe it's a preference and have yet to see a dog that transferred a bite be overcome , it just made the engagement longer and a bit more difficult on a very few occassions . I also believe the majority of dogs will eventually transfer a bite , some will just take way more presure to do so .

Howard asked;

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I guess it only makes sense that a clear thinking dog would do this automatically in the face of extreme threat during real apprehensions.

I don't think a dog is neccessarily think clearly only if they transfer a bite under extreme threat . It depends on the dog 1 may be thinking clearily and holding a bite because they have been able to win most of the time doing this , same with 1 that transfers the bite . On the flip side a dog may not be thinking clearly and under stress holds a bite no matter what . Also 1 transferring a bite may not be thinking clearily and being over stressed transfer a bite due to lack of confidence in that situation . My feeling , it depends on the dog .

Lastly I am in no way saying a dog that transfers a bite under an extreme threat is weaker then one who holds 1 bite . Like I've said before it's just what that particuliar K9 has found works in overcoming his adversary .

As for fight drive , I believe in it but because of the many different definitions of it I no longer use the term . I use the definitions of drives to make things clearer in training . The term fight drive now a days often complicates things .

Thanks Jim - good post

Howard…. My dog has always been an arm dog. If the arm is not available he likes to target chest or back. When I first got him we had to post him for a few sessions to teach him to bite legs.

He will take legs without issue now but will ALWAYS transfer to an inside arm or chest bite after he has taken the leg….and the transfer will always occur as soon as possible with lightning speed.

We worked on “alternative bite areas” and solidified them before we brought muzzle into the equation. I noticed that after we got my dog heavy into muzzle that his “inside” targeting work got much stronger.

Jim,

Thanks for the reply. You've given me some insight about things I hadn't considered. With such a large amount of teams in your unit I'm sure you've seen it all, and knowing that you are matter-of-fact in your responses, without trying to make friends, lends weight to your post.

Matthew, Does/has your dog transferred on the street?

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Matthew, Does/has your dog transferred on the street?

No... his only street bite was a tricept bite.

I was going to add my experiences and views here, but since I'm just a "henchman", I think I'll skip this conversation....

Though, A highly respected "henchman". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />