Wow - thanks Connie and Shelley especially for the very detailed info and opinions you are providing.

Here goes with a few more questions - I hope I'm not wearing you out!!

Back to the butcher topic... I've heard and read that meat only without the bones isn't good. When your butcher puts together the scraps, how do you go about determining (or explaining the need) whether there is some appropriate bone content?

Wow - chicken is really high in your area. One of the reasons we have thus far fed a high % of thighs/legs is that we can get them on a regular basis for 19 - 29 cents per pound. Even backs and necks are in the 69 - 89 cents per pound range. But my dogs are worth it, so I really want to puruse the butcher scrap option (I do have two locally owned butchers right here) - I just want to make sure I can get a decent bone to meat ratio - and I'm not sure what ratio to talk about.

I have more questions about the rest of the info, but I'm trying to post my questions between things on a busy day. So I'll be back later this weekend with more - if you don't mind continuing to help!!

Many MANY thanks!!

Beth

 Quote:

.... I've heard and read that meat only without the bones isn't good. When your butcher puts together the scraps, how do you go about determining (or explaining the need) whether there is some appropriate bone content?....

Meat without bones is a nutritional disaster.

My own goal is to equate my dogs' meat/bones to what he'd eat if he killed a prey animal and ate it.

I pretty much use the NJ Boxer site (based on Billinghurst, whose books are sold here at Leerburg.com), which gives RMB amounts plus muscle-meat-plus-organs-and-produce in percentages, or, if I have a whole chicken, I feed the whole carcass (only I have the legs ground) over however many meals it takes. As stated, I also use other meats (lamb flaps, etc.) for variety.

Some actual meal plan ideas:

http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#plans

Now I went back to see the part about "cuttings" from the butcher, I see my post just now was pretty oblique.

Cuttings ("spare meat") would make up part of the NON-RMB portion, because it would be mainly muscle meat and fat, etc. At least, if I'm reading it right.

I do not ask the butcher to make up bone-meat mixtures......that's my job, and he doesn't have the knowledge.

I do ask him for what I know makes up the right ratio, and RMBs (like backs, wings, lamb flaps) do, un-ground.

Then for the other part of the diet (meat plus organs plus produce, or whatever else you add), I do ask the butcher for "extras" sometimes. And he's not grinding them, so I can see what it is and avoid too much fat or skin or whatever. The items I ask him to grind already contain the right ratios.....they are real body parts, bone included.

And yes, Shelley is absolutely right about small stores: My local natural food store will grind anything I buy, bones included, with no extra charge.

Hello. Im curious as to the overall feedback on Raw vs a top quality kibble. Im mixing Innova Evo 42/22 w/Royal Canin and excellent results in terms of coat and energy. SHe is a working hunt/trial dog and we are dabbling in SCH. Her energy is extreme though shes very heat sensitive. Had a few scares with bones-both basted and raw and discontinued. I do supplement w/sardines and fish/flax oil and meat table scraps-chicken, beef on a regular basis.
If we can get an edge, Im all for it and the reason for my inquiry.
thanks

Connie explained the beef cutting mixture vs. meat with bones. You cannot just feed raw meaty bones to the dog and expect it to do well. In my experience you MUST also provide meat without bones for some meals. THus, my meals will often consist of 2/3 ground chicken necks/backs (with bones ground in) and then 1/3 of the beef mixture. OR, 4 times a week the chicken mixture (with bone) and 2 days a week the beef mixture.

Hope that makes sense.

As far as raw vs. a high quality kibble. If I really felt that a high quality kibble would give the overall same health benefits and that it would be 'just as good as raw', I wouldn't be feeding raw.

FOr me the overall benefit of raw is seen long term and seen in how often I do NOT go to the vet and how long my dogs live healthy /active lives, and how they don't have parisite problems and so on.

Shelley, thanks for your clarification on what parts you feed of RMB + Meat. That is very helpful, and exactly what I was looking for. (Even though I get too wordy and my questions tend to get lost - at least I know that about myself!!)

Bill, while it's obvious I'm a newbie to raw feeding, I know we will never look back to kibble. While we know that our dog's diets can be further improved, it would be tough to convince me that a bowl of chicken legs/thighs, liver, fish, Omega 3 oils, Vit E and Vit C and the occassional other stuff is WORSE than Royal Canin might be. (and yes, that's what we fed our GSDs before raw.

The benefits have been most obvious in our older beagle who also has a siezure disorder. It's like he has a new lease on his life. I have wondered since we started feeding raw in January if my early dogs (a Shep / Chow mutt who died at 10 of cancer, and a Greyhound who died at 10 of kidney failure) would have lived longer if they had been fed this way - which is to Shelley's point.

This link provided in an earlier post http://www.njboxers.com/faqs.htm#plans expressed how we felt. We were afraid to get started. I guess we got even MORE afraid of feeding so much corn and other fillers which IMO are a nutritional void (and possible detriment) to our dogs.

Best wishes - I hope you try this. I don't think you will ever regret it.

Beth

 Quote:

.....the beef cutting mixture vs. meat with bones. You cannot just feed raw meaty bones to the dog and expect it to do well......

Exactly!

What we're aiming for, essentially, is the equivalent of what he would kill and eat. He wouldn't kill a prey animal and leave the muscle meat while he ate the ribs or wings, etc. So, since we are often not in the position of handing the dog a freshly-killed whole animal, we replicate the ratios.

And for me, that also means feeding what might've been in the intestines of the prey animal, what the dog (an opportunistic scavenger) might've scarfed up in the way of fallen ripe produce, etc., and it means supplementing what he's losing by not eating the eyeballs, brains, etc.

I changed about 4 months ago to the Honest kitchen " Force " in conjunction with supplements and feeding some raw with it, love it, wish I started my bitch with it when she was born instead of a year later, when I educated myself about through Leerburgh.

Connie and Beth-thanks for the replies. My experience(last week in fact) with a basted large meat bone was excessive diarreaha (sp.?) followed by constipation for a few days-I thought we had a blockage and was terrified. False alarm-xray,shot, tests & $200 later it was not. She is better now. She loves raw wings but doesnt seem to chew them up well-almost inhales that was an earlier scare. Are htese concerns valid? I like the Innova Evo-No grain, human grade meats, very good feed. I think coupled w/table meat scraps/sardines we are doing quite well, but again always looking for an edge to be in top condition.
Curious about the noticeable differences between the Raw switch from Royal-which I mix and the dog loves. It is loaded in Vit E, Omegas, Gluc., even smells fishy in a good way.
thanks