Quote:

.....I am with Woody and Diana and Candi on this....... instead of a gradually-increasing distraction phase, that situation sounds like over-the-top chaos with inappropriate corrections thrown in.

And Al and Maren (looking back to page one). You have received a lot of really good answers, IMHO. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Quote"Each time I go to him, pop him with the prong collar and walk back to my spot, expecting him to do the required task."EndQuote

Could be he just got tired of being 'popped' with a prong collar. I don't think you are supposed to 'pop' a prong. And Ed Frawley says for a prong to be effective, it must be positioned properly on the dog's neck. He has an excellent write up about this right here on this site. I suggest you go and read it, as it might just be very helpful to you.

>>Caveat, I am not an expert<< But I would strongly recommend you read some of Ed's articles and/or buy some of his DVD's on training.

I was surprised when you said that none of the dogs in your class are on leash.

 Quote:

Yes, Woody, it's everything you described, however, at the risk of my appearing dense by this point <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />, the trainer has never (man)handled my dog in any way before now. Yes, she's strict and one could go so far as calling her a Nazi (she's been called that by other people who use her), but she's never, ever touched or reprimanded my dog before this. She's never had to. Point being, I don't think my dog would have been terrified being in this class before the incident. He happens to be one of her favorite pupils!! It's very difficult not to like my dog, he's has "I'm sweet" written all over him.

Sooo, help me understand why it's ok for you to "level the hell out of your dog for looking crossways at one of my kids" and not OK for me/the trainer to do the same to my dog at that moment he snarled?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm not working at being thick-headed with you Woody, but it seems to be coming naturally to me here <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> . I'm with Barbara...I don't get when it's right and when it's wrong! Do you all think my dog was terrified during his class(es)?? Every time we pull up to the house to get his lesson he practically jumps out of the window to get there. He cries when we pull in her driveway - I know it's not from fear <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> . He exhibits all signs of "Yippee ,it's classtime again"!

He might be just stressed and excited (which does not mean happy). Like I just realized my dog gets sometimes when she's in particular situations.

In any case...my 65 lb. GSD showing aggression to a higher member of her pack (e.g., my 25 lb. toddler) over "natural" things like food, territory, or rank is always unacceptable. She has to understand that anything she does that can threaten my family will get her nailed to the wall. The causal effect there of her not understanding this--i.e., that she one day snaps at my kid--is very significant. It has been that way since she was 8 weeks old and applies to everyone in my house. My kids get nailed for teasing her as well (have not used the dominant dog collar on them yet). I'm lucky in that I don't have this problem at all because I ended up with a very easy-going, though high-drive, dog.

This situation--the significance, the possible outcomes, the environment--are 100% different from a dog that is being forced to learn an "unnatural" activity (down/stay) in a hostile environment.

I'm fine with correcting a dog for not doing unnatural things for which we've trained them (sitting, staying, whatever) but only when they have done the proper groundwork (ideally though motivation) to learn the task. Some people feel differently and have success with this approach (your instructor may be one of these people) but the biggest pleasure I get out of mypet dog is the relationship I have with her. That would be affected if I did too much compulsive training, or compulsive training by default, and I'd rather have a clumsily obedient (within reason) pet that liked me than a scared robot.

I guess there is a philosophical discussion to be had about how it could be wrong to correct for "natural" behaviors so severely but again, the possible risks of a situation like my dog on my kid far outweigh any kind of empathy I have for the dog's "feelings."

 Quote:

Quote"Each time I go to him, pop him with the prong collar and walk back to my spot, expecting him to do the required task."EndQuote

.........But I would strongly recommend you read some of Ed's articles and/or buy some of his DVD's on training........I was surprised when you said that none of the dogs in your class are on leash.

Here is a nice starting point, IMO. You can listen to it and/or read it right now:
http://www.leerburg.com/markers.htm

"Each time I go to him, pop him, and walk back" just screams lack-of-timing to me.

If you listen to this podcast (and the others, too), I think you'll start to see what many here are saying, not only about motivational training and gradual proofing (as opposed to what was described about the class), but about timing, timing, timing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> JMO!

And yeah, I would guess that he'd be excited to go to the place where there are lots of dogs off-lead to play with, too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

.......And yeah, I would guess that he'd be excited to go to the place where there are lots of dogs off-lead to play with, too. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sorry, Woody.......we were posting together!

For me (MHO), there's too much I don't like about that class and trainer (as described) to put into a post. That's why I (and others) direct you to podcasts and articles so you can see *for yourself* what a whole 'nother training philosophy looks like.

"Excited" for your pet dog is *not* a synonym for "happy," just as Woody said.

I think I finally get it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! All the thoughts in the last few posts; Janice, Woody, Connie all completed the pic for me in my mind. Whew! Didn't know excitement doesn't necessarily mean happiness. Also, Janice I think was sooo right about the timing. Each correction he got was always after I had to walk at least 20 to 25' each time to get to him so I guess the reason for the correction was lost on the poor dog.

FYI, I'm going to take him out of that class. Also, I just spent the last hour with him in an outdoor setting that was slightly different than what he's used to. Till now, his routine was daily 15 minute lessons every day with me alone in our home or outside in our yard or that group class. That's it. But I figured you guys know what you're talking about so I'll try something with low distractions. I chose a big parking lot, 15 parked cars, 1 or 2 people appearing getting in or out of their car, 1 or 2 dogs several hundred feet away, near a main road with cars going by. Had him do all commands he knows trying to notice his ability, or lack thereof, to focus. I can now easily see that the group class was way over his ability to focus. As an example, when a distant car beeped its horn, he looked in its direction. When a man got out of his car about 50 to 75' away and just stood by his car, he was distracted by this.

So, thank you all. My dog thanks you too!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

......Each correction he got was always after I had to walk at least 20 to 25' each time to get to him so I guess the reason for the correction was lost on the poor dog.......

YES! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Timing, timing, timing.

And IMO, a room full of off-lead dogs would be for the *extreme distraction* level, after the instruction (motivational, for me), after the dog knew the commands absolutely, 100%, after low-level distraction (maybe someone walking by you or into the room) and still 100% on the commands............. that room you described would be WAY up there on the distraction list, for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And you're so right about the dog having no idea why you were correcting him by the time you got there.

You'll get so much out of those podcasts/articles now........

P.S. Several very short sessions per day are much better than one long one, IMO, and it's good to start and quit on a high note every time (with a command you KNOW he will do and can be rewarded/praised for).

Basic ob can be a lot of fun for both of you. Truly! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I deplore admitting this to all of you but I think I have read every single thing Ed has every written (and listened to the podcasts) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> !

So reading it all again will have to be my next homework assignment. Apparently something didn't stick! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

One comment about ending on a high note. I knew this already (thanks to my reading it somewhere) but I never thought to end on a command I know he'll do. I used to wait for him to have a great response to whatever command. From now on, I'll just tell him to "sit" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and we'll both go home happy!

Head knowledge one thing, hands-on knowledge whole nother thing, LOL -- Watching Leerburg videos helps a lot too...

"Your Puppy 8 Weeks to 8 Months" (doesn't matter if he's 8 years old already!)

"Basic Obedience" (this is the Ph.D. of "basics")

"E-Collar Training for Pet Owners" (trust me, it's GREAT)

"Dealing With Dominant & Aggressive Dogs" (sweet dogs can bite too...)

Judy, you can't go wrong with these 4, and they're cheaper than that private Nazi's group class too <;-)