I never expected this much advice. At this point I gotta ask everyone to please make sure we are all friends dedicated toward the same cause. I think we are but my experience on doghobbyist sucked. If you go to the chow forum you will see my posts "CaptainHook2". There's this one person who relentlessly gives me hassle everytime and I quit posting there. The forum was dead for a few months so I tried again, sure enough, everyone was supportive and then she posted. I'm not going back again for awhile. I'm getting much better advice here plus we are all in some way connected to the Leerburg method. I like this forum.

Jack: I see the method to your madness and do understand. I also understand the majority opposing opinion. They say you know your dog. Believe it or not some situations with Bruno have gotten better with letting up and others have gotten better with tightening the reins. The poster on doghobbyist seems like she won't be satisfied unless we put Bruno down, then she would say I told you so.

We were all crushed when we had to put Pivo down in 04 so when we got this cute little furball we were expecting to have a replacement that we could love and cuddle etc. That didn't happen but like I did with Pivo, I try to take Bruno to as many places as I can even if I'm only getting out of the car to drop off a movie. Pivo was a good friend and I was determined to do the same with Bruno. It happened! Bruno is my best friend other than my wife and kids, even before other people. We do allot together so at this point, life without an aggressive dog is not an option unless we can change Bruno.

As for eating, Ed states an aggressive dog should only eat in his crate. The walls act as a barrier thus eliminating the possibility of a bite. He also says an aggressive dog must always be under control of a leash or crate at all times while in the house. If you do not have time for him, he goes in the crate. Now, where we could let up is get his attention when entering the kitchen more often and show him we are not a threat. This also goes along with the behaviorists advice. When successful he'll exit the kitchen toward us as he stretches, we'll give him a good rub down and praise and all is good. We can avoid some scenarios by not putting him down for the night until we are done in the kitchen, thus avoiding a confrontation but; we are then not able to get into the kitchen. This is why I want to get him back in the crate at night unless we can overcome his kitchen gaurding. Really, it isn't even the kitchen, it's the place he decides to lay down in which, like before could be avoided if we keep him on a lead in the house. Enter Dogtra 1700. The new fancy tool has proven effective so far. Still working my way through this method. Also, my family does play a part in his aggression. They are not as atuned to the protocol as I am. Timing, appropriate praise/treats, knowing when to leave him alone vs. confront him etc. They are ALWAYS asking me whether what they are doing is right or if they should praise him or not. When you think about it, Bruno is not the one who needs to change, we are. All he does is react to our actions or lack thereof. I really don't think the hanging method is working with him. (Man does that sound evil <img src="http://www.leerburgkennels.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. Anyway, the remote trainer seems to give better results. Thanx for your support and I'll "Keep you posted!".

DZ

Oh - I wouldn't call Jack's method "madness" - it is appropriate for intra-familial panic-related aggression. It can be appropriate for intra-familial control-related aggression, but that cannot be determined via internet and it is wiser (for your family's safety) to give advise that is a little overboard in structure than lacking.

This is something I really hesitate to mention as is is very dangerous, but I feel it is necessay that you understand what is going on (if you don't already) In a dog pack, the dominant dog expects the submissive dog to get out of the way. Bruno is expecting you to get out of his way/space. I do a lot of stupid things, so I would probably try walking into the kitchen completely ignoring him and not change my steps to accomodate his location. If the dog is very dominant, he'd attack me - so just remember this isn't recommended, but food for thought. If the dog is less dominant, he'll be stunned and in a Cesar-Millan-meets-Kodak -moment you praise/treat/play and walk away. If somebody is going to be stupid and try this with a dog, for the love of "dog" at least put a muzzle on the dog!!

Of course, you can approach each individual situation from obedience, but it pretty much eliminates anyone else handling the dog. I don't do this because it doesn't give results that mot people want to live with and it takes far too long for rescue dogs and will not transfer easily to a different handler, house or situation. He's in the kitchen, give a down stay and use the e collar to enforce it as you walk around. What previously was a pack issue is now a distraction in obedience.

I will not tolerate dominance/handler aggression from a dog in my house. I approach pack issues directly and toughly as a foundation for all other training. It's simple, clear, fair and fast. When a formally aggressive dog comes into a house with this structure in place, it makes immediate dramtic change in the dog's behavior that may end the former aggression before it is ever displayed.

A very good idea, Anne. Dogs should never expect humans to walk around them, nor should they expect to receive affection when they walk up to their owners and demand it.

My fiance's family's dog will growl and bite if people sit next to him on the couch and pet him. First off, dogs don't belong on couches, but they allow this, even the growling, thinking that he's just in a bad mood and they shouldn't have been bothering him. That's the worst thing that can be done. I've only physically thrown him off the couch once, maybe twice at least a year or so ago, but when I sit next to him on the couch he does get off because when I'm there I control him, his walks, his meals (as much as possible, I know he gets unearned treats sneaked to him), his barks, access to the kitchen when food is prepped, everything. His life changes when I am there. A dog that moves out of YOUR way has respect for you, a dog that refuses to move thinks he's your boss. Does the captain of a ship move out of the way for an incoming ensign or lieutentant? No way! The subordinates always move out of the way of ranking officers.

"Too cool for school" LOL.

That's basically it, Bruno is allot of work and there interests lie elsewhere. My oldest, both girls, is not afraid of him but I tell her she better respect him because she's 150 pounds, no where near as fast, powerful or dedicated to the mission as he is. She thinks she could handle herself but there's no way. Sometimes I wish I could use a remote collar on her. My youngest is very passive with him and scared and he knows it. I try and work close with both to help them work/correct/praise him consistently with the way I do. Now we're playing training catch-up. It sucks to have to do but then again, they are only reacting in a manner in which I have taught them. I mean, isn't that where we get or ways, from our teachers? Man, this is all ultimately my fault. LOL Well, you can't get sheep to vote!

Lemme bounce this off you. I'm going to use the collar in the evening, with a muzzle. I bought the largest rot muzzle from Leerburg but it was way to long. I cut it down on my band saw and it fits very well. Will this show him a consequence if I apply his muzzle at the very onset of aggression or would it simply make him hate the muzzle? If I do this for an extended period will he become submissive, then revert once we try life without the muzzle again?

Eric,
Try just putting it on (put a ball or meat or something in it) and see how he responds. My girls immediately become submissive with their muzzles on. It could avoid some issues - but you certainly don't want your dog going through life dependant on a muzzle! It is my first thought to use the muzzle as a positive-only thing so you don't have a pre frustrated dog when the muzzle is necessary.

Actually I just used the collar, no muzzle. I've been counting the times that he growls and I stim him with a positive outcome. So far, 6 for 6. All with me though, he's really clingy, even when I commanded him to his pad. I had to cut him some slack as he seemed afraid to leave but that's what I wanted. I'm going to set him up and give my daughter an opportunity to tell him to move because that's the main issue. I hate setting him up like that but I guess that's what you call training.

we are then not able to get into the kitchen

I think Anne's advice is excellent. The dog cannot control the kitchen. If he does, you cannot possibly ignor the fact that he has far too much power in the house. It sounds like the Dogtra collar is working well, I would use that to re-train the dog. I don't know if you need to crate the dog all the time, but you do need to retrain him so that he does not try and dominate you and your family. This also sounds like a dog that can never be trusted with strangers or kids.

When our kids were younger, our GSD/chow would not listen to them, and sometimes growled at them. At that time, she was much more responsive to my husband and me. As the kids grew up, she became civil with each one as they matured. Your dog sounds like a much harder case, and much more likely to bite a family member

Truth be told he has nipped all but my youngest. I say nipped because had it been a full on bite there would have been major damage, sort of like he was firing a warning shot. It was always during one of the scenarios we've been discussing. The last time was me. I was working on making him look at me when I called his name, that exercise kinda slipped lately. I would throw him a piece of "pup-corn". This one piece landed between his pad and a buffet cabinet. He's trying to get it but can't so I tried to move his pad for him and he got me so fast I didn't see it happen and I was looking right at him. Needless to say I was a tad angry. Afterward, knowing his issues, I realized I should have relocated him, then got the treat. I am much more careful and that was the last time he's nipped anyone.

When I say we cannot go into the kitchen, I mean without hassle. He has never prevented us from going in, we have had to tell him go, or corner, or in the interest of caution, pushed him back with the baby gate.

I had to brief my youngest last night. I had him lay at the kitchen entrance purposefully so she could tell him to move when she was done in the kitchen. He was wearing the collar and I was around the corner. She told him to move and he did without a peep. As she passed she told him good boy as if she had just lost her birthday (sweet 16 coming up). I was so pissed. Here I am putting my dog through allot of stress in re-training and she puts forth NO effort not 5 minutes after I explained the purpose of the exercise. Everyone in the house knows the importance of praise for a job well done and she pulls her attitude. I let her have it and told her she better get with the program because this is not fair to Bruno.

I think over the internet you all may be getting a hideous picture of "Bruno the dog". He's not that bad, just has some issues and as you know we are working on them. Right now he's laying at me feet (I always lay a leg or foot over him so I can tell if he tries to move). He still greets us at the door, tail wagging, feet prancing, when we come home. He still obeys the commands of my daughters better than most non-aggressive dogs do with their owners. He's a perfect dog whe he's not resting or eating. When he is resting it only takes calling his name to get him up and moving, most times, and we can go and have normal dog relations. When out and about he never pulls anymore, he does not get distracted by other dogs etc. When taking treats he does so very gently and slowly. I'm comfortable giving him treats from my mouth but I know him better than anyone else. Anyway, I have business to attend to. I do custom wood working, plaques, fix broken toys, special ed equipment etc. I'm making a bookshelf with dragon cutouts for my sister, a 50th shaped anniversary plaque with multiple picture frames in the numbers for my in-laws, I just finshed overhauling a gas grill (turned out looking like furniture), an Air Force One coin holder (military stuff) etc. My wife also has a shelf of broken equipment and toys from the school she works at. I get to them as I can. Anyway, I gotta get busy. I'll check back tonight.

DZ

Perhaps your daughters do not realize the stakes. It's just Dad's dog, so it must be Dad's problem.

Try letting them know that if Bruno's behavior doesn't change Daddy's gonna have to put a bullet in his brain pan, because he won't submit to the girls at will, because the girls won't take the time to assert themselves and re-mold his behavior, which he learned from them.

OTOH Put the older one in a bite suit and let her see how fast/powerful a dog can be. Perhaps the girls lack the ability to comprehend the swiftness and ferocity of a large dog's attack. That's not intended as an insult.