Quote:

Originally posted by Chad Stahl:
A catabolic state has nothing to do with a negative N balance.

Muscle does not weigh more than fat.

Nitrogen balance has everything to do with either a catabolic effect(the breakdown of muscle tissue), or an anabolic effect(the building of muscle tissue). Here's a link to that fact. Scroll down and do the math.

http://dietarysoftware.com/manual/5-conversions.htm

Here's another. At the bottom of the second paragraph it states clearly..."Positive nitrogen balance indicate uptake of nitrogen(anabolic process), negative values of nitrogen mean a loss of nitrogen(catabolic process).

http://ndt.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/9/2266

Yeah, a pound is a pound. But per cubic inch, muscle tissue weighs more than fat tissue. We're not talking dry weight here. Muscle tissue is more dense than fat tissue, taking up less physical space in the body per pound. A barely noticeable change in the looks of a dog(or human)could mean an even bigger change on the scale. With that fact in mind, I would go by what the dog looks like rather than by what the scale says. 55lbs may be ideal for this dog's frame.

Carbs from kibble dog food are actually not fully absorbed, and not very beneficial. Corn & rice serve little to no benefit to a carnivore. That's why you see twice as much sh-t when you feed your dog kibble, as most of this stuff is just going to waste.

Mike,
I think you are still confusing N balance with catabolism and anabolism. You can have catabolic and anabolic activity that are completely independant of N balance, i.e.:
1) Feed an animal a protein deficient diet that exceeds the animals energy needs. The N balance would be negative, but anabolic activity will be occuring in adipose tissue.
2) Give an animal a diet with protein in excess but deficient in energy, the N balance would be positive, but catabolic activity will be taking place in multiple tissues in order to meet energy needs.

You are way off the mark on carbohydrate digestion from corn and rice, so I'm very interested in what you think is a more available/better carbohydrate source for dogs.

You should look into what's recommended in a B.A.R.F. diet. You will find MANY sources of carbs that are more beneficial to your dog, sources that a carnivore would consume in the wild. Corn, rice, and refined carbs are not on the menu, lol.

Originally posted by Mike Sanchez:
You should look into what's recommended in a B.A.R.F. diet. You will find MANY sources of carbs that are more beneficial to your dog, sources that a carnivore would consume in the wild. Corn, rice, and refined carbs are not on the menu, lol. Now I'm intrigued. Since you have done far more reading on the topic of BARF diets than I ever would, please list one carbohydrate source that a carnivore would consume in the wild that is a more digestible/usable carbohydrate than rice or corn.

I had a dog once that was a solid dog and then dropped a bit of his wieght very quickly. Now this was a dog that would eat and would run himself stupid in a kennel if you allowed him.

So I crated him. I also took him to the vet and nothing was found wrong with him. We did a stool sample and a blood panel. The dog was a very hard do to keep wieght on at this point, but otherwise very healthy. This went on for about 8 months.

One day I went to his crate and found him dead. The vet did some further test, sent samples of organs away to a Gainsville and turns out he had some type of infection that flared up and killed him. So I would get a bit worried if a dog drops wieght so fast and in a drastic amount. Exercise will cause a dog to lean out and maybe loose a bit of wieght, but not that much, unless you are feeding him/her Supermarket dog food, and even then.

Wow,Michael, that must have been a shocker to you!!Very sad... Retrospectively, do you think that there could have been any way for you to diagnose the dog's problem prior to it's death? Any thing you might have done differently?

Well, Bella is doing fine, and her tests should be back soon, so I'll let you know the outcome. She is having some adjustments in her diet thanks to a recommendation from Chad to increase her fats and proteins and this seems to be doing the trick. Thanks Chad, I'll let you know more by PM.

Hi Lynn, I'm really glad to have your input too, I suppose that you have had your share of feeding issues with keeping the sled dogs fit! I was hoping to hear from you!!

Thanks to everyone for your concern and for sharing with me your various experiences and knowledge!!That's one of the reasons I love this board!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I have a young dog that is about 17 months and was thin. I added a quarter more to his food everyday, and he is gaining muscle. This is normal. A dog that eats like what is described here is not. It would surpise me if she is really healthy. I would find a University that has a good reputation, and have them see if they can find out what is going on. Normal vets may miss this or that, so I would not stop there.

I also purchased a dog from Holland that drank tons of water if allowed. She came in the summer, so it was hot. I figured that is what it was. I also did the vet thing and everything was ok, just to be sure. About 9 months later she developed some kinda of cough with a yellow thin fluid. Antibiotics cleared it up ,and guess what, nomore massive water consumption. Some of these things stay hidden for a while. Some vets do not know what to look for. While not everything is exotic, sometimes it pays to keep probing.

Well, she is being worked up by a vet for possible hidden ailments, but assuming all is well and she checks out to be fine.........I will also have to think that if she starts to put on weight on a DECREASED amount of food but with a higher fat and protein content that her problem was diet related.
This is why I come here alot, because I love all of the differing opinions and the vast wealth of knowledge found here!
I am sure this is diet related, but I'm not foolish and thinking other things shouldn't be considered and investigated. And they are.

Ya know....all this sort of reminds me of looong ago when I asked a question about raised hackles and 5 million people( exagerration!) said "oh, weak nerves!!I tried to explain that wasn't the issue..... Well, in that instance Kevin Sheldahl had evaluated her a short time later and found her to be very sound of nerve and today she proves that still. She is fearless and confident as a police K9.

My point is, I know this dog, and I believe her diet was lacking in some way, and I hope that now she will start to put on a little bit more weight!
I'll keep everyone updated, I promise!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Here's an example from this site Chad. I'm using this one because it's very close to what I've recently started feeding. The pureed plant matter is the most natural carb source for a carnivore(compared to the digested plant matter in the stomachs of herbivores). Don't jump up & down, as this is just an example. Just read the article.

http://www.leerburg.com/diet.htm