Quote:

Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers darling. My concern is for your poor dog. I am currently raising my 6th GSD. I train my dogs in a sport called schutzhund. I rely on the expertise of many people whom I respect & have learned a lot from along the way by keeping an open mind for the past 25 years. You seem to have a rather defensive attitude, so don't worry, I won't be wasting either of ours time by responding to you any further.

My feathers aren't ruffled at all. Apparently, yours are. I have no problem listening to opinions and commentary. I truly appreciate the comments I received.

I won't, however, be lectured nor spoken to with such condescending tonality. That's my mother's job. She died in 1992, but if I decide to reopen her position you will be the first to know. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

"Let a puppy be a puppy and develop their personality, then work them on a prong at 8-10+ months old"

What about simply walking a younger dog on a prong? Just making it uncomfortable to pull on leash? I have many students whose dogs I know are not getting enough excercise because walking them is annoying. I don't teach them to use correction on these dogs (larger breeds over 4 months).

I share both these opinions.

A four-month-old is a four-month-old, regardless of size, and except for self-correction (for pulling on walks), I agree that prong-collar correcting at that age is jumping the gun.

I am a trainer, have been for a long time, and I have never used a prong (which I have zero problems with using, btw) on a four-month-old.

I'm so glad the teething is getting a little better! That can really make a pup miserable.

Good luck with your puppy!

P.S. I didn't detect lecturing or condescension in Susan Tuck's tone, but then, this is print, and it's hard to convey "flavor." <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

P.S. I didn't detect lecturing or condescension in Susan Tuck's tone, but then, this is print, and it's hard to convey "flavor." <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Truer words were never spoken. If I mis-interpreted Susan's tone, then Mea Culpa. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the post Connie. I truly appreciate all of the replies.

Sorry for the length of my reply.

I went over all of the comments with the trainer. I trust her judgement. Please understand I use the prong sparingly. Never on a drag leash, never playing in the yard. Rarely on the back porch. (only when kitty is out there - he WANTS the kitty!) <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

He wears it on walks - corrections when he spots the neighbor's dog - he goes nuts. He is strong and can pull me like a mule train.

Bear in mind I am also walking The Pug (a pug mix - the vet thinks chow - 40 lbs) with us. So when the two of them team up it is rather exciting. Pug is still getting used to the Boy, hence the main reason for the walks. Other than the neighbor's dog - they do great together on walks. The walks are a must.

I also use the prong inside the house. Kitty is sometimes in there as well and HE WANTS THE KITTY! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> When the prong is on and he is in down stay, most times, kitty can walk by - no issues. He knows when the prong is on. I barely have to use it - he KNOWS it's there. (But sometimes - he just can't help himself...) <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ah, but when the prong is off, flat collar on? FAGETTABOUTTIT - down/stay flies out the window, kitty runs, prey drive kicks in and well....you know the rest. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> He is amped up to get Kitty, I pop him (not very hard - enough to get his attention) - he is focused on Kitty, doesen't appreciate the correction - he air snaps. Ditto the situation when he hears my daughter's voice.

My husband can come in and out, the UPS man at the door, other people/distractions - he is great in down/stay. Kitty & Bree are the two areas I am working on.

Having said all this, since you are a professional trainer, I'd like to know from you if you feel that this application of the prong is reasonable. If not, what is your opinion as to when it is OK to start a prong. (This is not sarcasm - I truly want to know.) <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Also, I would like to know your thoughts on the walking regiment we are on. Is 2 miles a day, broken up as I described, too much in your experience?

Thanks! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

.......I went over all of the comments with the trainer. I trust her judgement.......

Well, I am sending you a PM. I hope others will address the exercise question too. I would hate to overdo brisk walking on cement (if that's the case) with a possibly-overweight puppy (which also might be the case).

Since I mean zero condescension or lecturing, I'll go with a PM this time. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Good luck with your pup; good for you for researching and questioning. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yesterday, I had prepared a nice list of points, however, I was answering from my pda and I had such a long post and suddenly "paged cannot be displayed". Anyways, I'll try to rewrite my thoughts, now that I'm at a computer.

Use of Prong Collar

I'll begin with this issue since I've noticed that this has been a center point for people's posts.. I don't think that it's too early for teaching your pup to "wear" the prong. I usually start as early as 2 months.. more probably like 3... I don't, however, give any corrections during that time. I probably, would allow the pup to self-correct during walks and then, I keep that to a minimum.
(I like using both a prong and flat collar with 2 light leashes)I alternate between which leash I keep loose.

Since you've stated that your dog knows when the prong is on, it's apparent that he's collar-wise. What you need to do is back up a bit on your training and "desensitize" your pup to the different collars. I usually rotate the different collars throughout the day, with a treat given each time a collar is put on and taken off. I recommend getting a dummy e-collar, (even if you don't plan on using an e-collar; if you do, then this work will help), and add it to the rotation scheme. Prong, e-collar, flat collar, snap collar, and collar that you have available and just rotate them throughout the day.. Do this for around a month, and hopefully, your pup would care less what collar he's wearing.

Behavior Issues

Puppies that are teething, go through a difficult period, for some pups you don't see any difference. I'm sure your pup is kinda confused and is thinking ouch. I feel that the more you can bond with your pup the better.
The "after evening issue" I'm guessing, has become a learned action for him. I mean, he's now used to going crazy and being let out to play- either ignore him or when you do let him out; no one should show any interest in him especially not your daughter. Once he calms down, you can then pet him and give him treats... (I had a very similar issue with my female Mal, took me less than a week and she learned that going bananas wasn't going to get her anywhere. (side note: they are puppies after all and that's the fun thing about puppies <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I enjoy it when my pup comes running over and jumping and stuff, however, I realize that this isn't behavior that I would like when he's a grown up, so I try to "control his environment" in such a way to avoid such behavior.

Exercise

I guess that you might want to consider increasing the swimming and try to lessen the walking a little. Swimming is less strenuous than walking, especially if he's a bit overweight. I used to say, let your dog tell you when he's tired, I stopped saying that after working a few Mals. They have such high energy that they can just go on and on.

Stuff I recommend getting:

Puppy 8 weeks to 8 months DVD
Basic Dog Obedience DVD
Drive Focus and Grip DVD

A few tugs, balls on string, and yummy treats.

PS.. what are your plans for your pup? I recommended the Drive DVD since you said you have a working dog and has lots of prey drive, the DVD will teach you to redirect his drive into useful things, such as obedience.

Oh.. I just remembered, you are a little bit rushing the training having said that you've taught your pup the down stay at barely 4 months old.. I only recently began teaching the down stay to my, now 9 month old pup.

This is a long post, I hope that it helps.. All the posts were very useful, I wish you good luck with your pup. Keep us posted. If you have any specific questions my PM box is always open. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I definately do not mean to be snarky, and I am not trying to cause trouble, but why are you asking all of these questions (and continuing to respond to the answers) if you are so satisfied with your current trainer? Shouldn't she/he be able to answer them for you? Even if the trainer is on vacation, none of these seem to be 'life or death' and a lot of these behaviors/training methods of both dog and human (that others have commented on and I will leave alone) have been going on for quite some time and did not suddenly start while the trainer was away. Yet, you seem to be ignoring the suggestions others have given you and accusing people of 'lecturing' you.

You asked us to 'educate' you in the subject of this thread. A good teacher effectively utilizes 'lectures' in 'educating' a pupil.

I wish you the best of luck with this trainer, and that this puppy turns out to be just as good as her dogs and your sister's.

 Quote:

I definitely do not mean to be snarky, and I am not trying to cause trouble, but why are you asking all of these questions (and continuing to respond to the answers) if you are so satisfied with your current trainer?

Hey I`m satisfied with what I usually order at my regular restaurant but I still look at the menu.

hi diana:
A few things pop up to me too (and yes, I was a trainer for many years, and that included dogs with "issues"). One thing, the literature is replete with information on over-exercizing pups causing orthopedic problems later on. Pups 4 months old need space to run around and be crazy pups. Walking on a leash just won't do it- they aren't miniature adults- they are pups with mush for brains, and they need to let off steam. Games like chase the toy, fetch, chase other dogs, and be chased, all do wonders to zap some energy. Walking is BORING for a pup <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
As for the cat, since he can't wear the prong 24/7, I would strongly suggest you work on down stays with distraction without the prong- yes, it can be done, even if you have to stand on the leash. Teach him that when you say down, it doesn't matter if prime rib goes walking by- he stays down. That will translate into him realizing that when you want him down as a larger adult, and even harder to handle, he must stay there. Correcting him for doing something is never as good as teaching him NOT to do something- if that makes any sense <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I would let him run around like a nut, and work on down stays with mucho rewards for doing so, and that is about all I would do for now- except for maybe sit, come, paw, whatever, but let him be a pup, and run around like one <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Julie

Puppies are just like children if you want them to learn you need to work with them in short interval, and make it fun for them. I never intruduce a pinch collar to one of my dogs until they are at least 12 months old. Then if they learn fine on the choke or training collar they dont even get introduced. As for frisbee at 4 months of age, you need to be careful yes their bones are plyable but to much jumping and hard exercise can be harmful to their joints, we dont start that kind of extensive training until ours is 12 months, we dont even let the 4H kids train for agility until their dog is 12 months old, and have completed basic obedience