Scott,
Most vet's refer to the slickest saleman type-trainer, not the best dog trainer - I've seen that problem *many* times.

Ed's Comments edited in:

In my opinion VEts are not people I would ever recommend for training information. 99.9% of the Vets out there are not dog trainers and dont know much about dog training. In all my years of training and traveling around the world to film dog events I have only met 3 or 4 vets that were good dog trainers.

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Scott,
Most vet's refer to the slickest saleman type-trainer, not the best dog trainer - I've seen that problem *many* times.

It's the "glossy brochure" thing, maybe. Kinda like the gospel according to Hills? :>

But a Springer that's dominant being automatically labeled as afflicted with a personality disorder, tempting the owner to limit corrections, thus creating a spoiled, dominant dog or a surrendered and then euthanized dog -- this worries me. I've trained a couple of ESSs (manners/basic obedience, which was all these particular dogs needed and all the owners wanted), and with all respect to anyone who is more knowledgeable about personality disorders, my experience has not been that "most" of any breed is afflicted with one.

I am ready to be re-educated, definitely..... I just would hate to see a breed written off by anyone because of this thread (and I am sure no one on the thread intends that).

Ditto Connie's post. I am worried of an incorrect stereotype with the breed. I still encounter people saying "oh you want a GSD? Don't you know they'll turn on you?" when that was all based in incorrect understandings of dog behavior and pack dynamics (translation: clueless owners).

There really seems to be more debate of what MEDICALLY causes Rage rather than whether it's strictly medical or strictly behavioral (yes, some, but mostly the former). The descriptions of supposed Rage are also really unusual- dog suddenly stops what it's doing, its eyes glaze over, then it attacks "phantoms in its airspace" and then snaps out of it, continuing on as if nothing happened. I haven't seen mention of Rage being described as "dog snapping at owner because owner tried to take away its chew toy" as that is understandable in a situation not managed by the owner. The first described scenario, that's a definite mental misfire.

i'm no expert, but it sounds to me as if Dee Dee has a high-drive pup who's taking advantage of a prey-item (the poor little Pap). i mean, if it was a GSD, what would you be recomending??

forget the "rage" nonsense. a "field-bred" ESS is HIGH DRIVE, and that's what Dee Dee has; so what do we do with high-drive dogs???? we give them a job, we keep the crazy pups (think mals) away from the older dogs so they don't abuse them (crate, anyone??).

at her pup's age (12 wks? now), we re-direct the biting behavior, why not just do that w/the spaniel? i think that separation, "marker" training w/the pup, plenty of excercise (remember what these dogs are bred to do--ALL DAY LONG), things'll be ok.

it's just a baby--why label it with "rage" at this point? let's get down to training!! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

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i'm no expert, but it sounds to me as if Dee Dee has a high-drive pup who's taking advantage of a prey-item (the poor little Pap). i mean, if it was a GSD, what would you be recomending?? ....forget the "rage" nonsense. a "field-bred" ESS is HIGH DRIVE, and that's what Dee Dee has; so what do we do with high-drive dogs???? we give them a job, we keep the crazy pups (think mals) away from the older dogs so they don't abuse them (crate, anyone??). ....at her pup's age (12 wks? now), we re-direct the biting behavior, why not just do that w/the spaniel? i think that separation, "marker" training w/the pup, plenty of excercise (remember what these dogs are bred to do--ALL DAY LONG), things'll be ok.....it's just a baby--why label it with "rage" at this point? let's get down to training!!

I'm with you. I'd do exactly what I'd do with any high-energy dog with lots of prey drive, and you nailed it. Separate the puppy from the Papillon "prey item," and focus on tons of exercise. In fact, the O.P. had a great idea in the very first post....... QUOTE: the only other remedy I can think of is to add another hour walk to the schedule END. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add that this even helps a lot with the dreaded RDS that Al mentioned. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm not that computer literate, but I beleive the term is you've hijacked this thread.

I beleleive the poster was originally talking about her ESS dragging her PAP by the tail.
The poster's complaint was, that up until now her firm "NO" had stopped her ESS, but this was not working anymore.
My concern was only that the escalation of correction not result in resentment towards the handler.

Yes I did mention Rage Syndrome, but only as a breed specific problem that does exist, but not nessecarily in this case. I have observed both extreme (sometimes in very young pups) and milder forms of Rage Sydrom (in older adults) it is a behavior problem that is very specific to this breed.

Most Vet's that refer clients to me, do so out of concern for their clients and their dogs.
They do so because I have a proven history of solving behavior problems.
This referal makes the Vet look good, it makes a Owner/Family very happy and I beleive it keeps one dog out of the Shelters.
I think why I am invited into so many judges court rooms as a expert witness on dog behavior, especially when it comes to aggressive behavior, is because I do not offer oppinions on things that I have not observed first hand.

Exactly. To DeeDee, sorry the thread got derailed. Hope we didn't scare you with the Rage. You just have a very active pup, be a good, fair leader to your dogs and provide plenty of physical and mental stimulation (don't go overboard on the physical exercise until your pup is closer to adulthood) and lots of quality bonding time, and you'll be fine. Keep an eye on the papillon and if it looks like he's getting beaten up and he's not liking it, step in.

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I'm not that computer literate, but I beleive the term is you've hijacked this thread. .......... I think why I am invited into so many judges court rooms as a expert witness on dog behavior, especially when it comes to aggressive behavior, is because I do not offer oppinions on things that I have not observed first hand.

I'm sure you're right! I was trying to point out in a non-confrontational way that maybe this statement very early in the thread:

QUOTE: ESS are prone to an aggression problem called Rage Syndrome. All correction of an ESS should be carefully considered by their owners before enacting them. I believe that most ESS suffer from this condition to some degree or other. END

might cause the casual reader to believe that "most ESS suffer from this condition to some degree or other." Since everything I read and saved, with no exceptions, called this a "rare" or "very rare" disorder, it seemed to be a good thing to address.

I was not challenging your first-hand experience, and I said that. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I think everyone here has the same goal, though, of helping the o.p. with her energetic and drivey pup and of protecting the little Papillon.

Anne as per my original post

ESS are prone to an aggression problem called Rage Syndrome. All correction of an ESS should be carefully considered by their owners before enacting them. I believe that most ESS suffer from this condition to some degree or other. Rage Syndrome seems to develop as ESS mature. The many cases of Rage Syndrome that I have worked with all have had two common denominators; they had no food drive, through over feeding, and their obedience had been forced, there was not enough bribery and play incorporated in their education.

This style of training seems to consistently create a grumping, middle aged dog that could bite anyone at any time and afterwards willing to defend his right to do so! This is not to say that all ESS will arrive here. I believe it because of the many experienced ESS enthusiasts that rally to this breed that we see excellent examples of what an ESS can be both in the home and in the field.

This was from my original post!
Maybe you could start a post on Rage Syndrone in ESS,
seems to be lots of interest!

Regards,

Scott