Yes Connie, I know appropriately was the word you used, that's why I said the protection may not be perfect if the dog isn't protection trained, but good enough to allow the owner to get away. I would most definitely want my dog to be protection trained so that I wouldn't have to wonder if I'd be protected, and also for the confidence that protection training gives a dog in such a case, so I agree also that it would not be a good idea to assume a dog would protect you. Also, when I said I would want my dog to be aggressive when "I need him to be", Ok, semantics, so I'll change the word to "tell" him to be. What I was trying to convey is the "need" for my dog to be aggressive, should the situation arise. But I thought I was making myself pretty clear....I'm not into letting my dogs be aggressive when they feel like it, just when it's needed, and yes, I would determine that, (unless I'm hit from behind and knocked unconscious <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

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......No, toughness or weakness doens't necessarily determine anything except whether or not the person walking their dog innocently is going to get bit. I was merely stating that I understood Sandy's viewpoint. You're right this is going off into the deepwoods <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sorry for offending your sensibilities Connie.

You didn't.

The thread is (basically) about the advisability of letting the (pet) dog determine any aggressive response.

I think that it's a very bad idea --- weak, strong, NYC, Phoenix --- just a bad and irresponsible idea. That starts problems more than it ends them.

JMO.

I agree and I disagree. In the case of the golden I definitely agree. The only part I disagree about is if a rott. or comparible were to accost us. Then I would leave the decision to my dog because I'd be hiding behind him/her. Cowardly I know <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> , but dogs in my area are scary.

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I would say dogs from ghettos with criminals are different than dogs from upper income areas. And yes, I would be hesitant to attempt to drive away a dog in a NYC ghetto <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

That is a very narrow view of the world.

I live in a fairly nice area and pull down a fairly nice salary. There are dogs in my neighborhood that are extremely dog aggressive and no they aren't little yorkies. Location doesn't matter, a dog from the "rough" section of town that is powerful and unsocialized is just as dangerous as a dog from the part of town where the 200k homes are a bargain if it is also aggressive.

I am going to have to agree 101% with Connie on this.

That said: To expect a non PPD trained dog to protect you is proposterous. To expect the dog to be able to make a decision is boarderline insanity.

Here is a situation: You are approached by homeless person in your nice neighborhood while walking your two Doberman Pinschers. Confident in your dogs ability to keep the situation under control you don't verbally tell the man to stay back. You don't carry a weapon because you have two Dobermans. Your family is notified a couple of days later that your body has been discovered. Happened in Webster, NY a couple years ago.

Or this: A "mean" dog approaches and you allow your dog to become aggressive. He is now very high in drive since this behavior has been allowed previously. The other dog is also high in drive...Finally the owner catches up because it got loose. Your powerful dog is no longer responding to the prong collar as his drive is too high, it is stressed and not trained. The prong collar futher agitates the dog. It either breaks free from you and attacks the other dog and handler or it turns and attacks you. This one is a hypothetical but was seen in Ed's Dominant Dog DVD where Ed was almost bitten.

I can think of many reasons that it is a bad idea and few good reasons.

I will drive off a "bad" dog. I don't want my dog "helping" me if I am being attacked as then I will have to take care of TWO dogs biting me. Maybe I am overconfident in my ability to deal with an aggressive dog comming at me but I do NOT want my dog to make the decision. I don't want to let my dog become maimed or killed by another dog. The dog can't reason, he can only react.

As far as guarding against man...I have an Austrian breed specifically designed to preserve my life and liberty.

Boys and Girls,

Every now and then I comment. Some times I rue my commentary because I betray my inability to comprehend and articulate. Every now and then I am bewildered by some of the responses.

In my unelightened opinion, some of you are living in a world of hope. And as near as I can determine you are living with the hope that in some serious situation your dog will - of its own will and intellectual prowess - come to your protection and vanquish the evil doers.

See, as I see it, the problem with hope and its application to the protective inclinations of your dog is that it lacks any foundation in training and control. For your dog to reliably 'protect' you it must be trained. And for it to be trained, you must be trained - first.

Mr. Tuttman asked for comments in re the behavior of his dog in a given situation. How the thread got off on social and geographical commentary is bewildering.

It is possible my comprehension and comments are/were far off the mark. And then, again, I live in NY.

Two cents worth.

Mike A.

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.....as near as I can determine you are living with the hope that in some serious situation your dog will - of its own will and intellectual prowess - come to your protection and vanquish the evil doers...... For your dog to reliably 'protect' you it must be trained. And for it to be trained, you must be trained - first...........It is possible my comprehension and comments are/were far off the mark. And then, again, I live in NY...

<img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think you've stayed on the mark.

The point, IMHO, is that the most important thing BY FAR we impart to our pet dogs is this: The handler is in charge. The dog is not in charge.

Any plan or course that doesn't support that one vital premise is going to fall far short in the minds of experienced dog people, I believe.

The O.P. asked for comments, and the comments about immediately correcting (and *controlling*) a dog who attacks, and then working on pack leadership, were to the point. JMO!

And that's MY two cents. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dog aggression no matter what should be a level 10 correction with whatever you have handy, preferably on a nylon choke, but sometimes you don't have that luxury if a dog is off leash. Everything else is irrelivent, it doesn't matter "why" it happened or what "caused" it, it's the handlers job to teach a dog that that kinda stupid behavior isn't tollerated under any circumstance! Any of this "the dog needs to protect the handler" stuff is crap, that's like giving a 5 year old a loaded gun and telling them "if someone looks scary then shoot them". It is more likely for your dog to attack an innocent dog (or person) than it is for your dog to protect you from a dog (or person) who's gonna kill you if you let your dog make the call, but that shouldn't even be the topic of discussion for this thread, it's irrelivent to the original posters dog, the dog needs control and to knock off the dog aggression.

Bravo Mike. Ladies and gentlemen. I asked what I thought was a relatively straight forward question. So far I have had one rude woman give her expert opinion and then I am reading posts about dogs in ghettos with relation to dogs in "Well to do neighborhoods" When realy what I would have liked to have seen was some emails offering FRIENDLY or just plain polite advice, thoughts, and opinions. I am almost sorry that I posted.

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Dog aggression no matter what should be a level 10 correction with whatever you have handy, preferably on a nylon choke, but sometimes you don't have that luxury if a dog is off leash. Everything else is irrelivent, it doesn't matter "why" it happened or what "caused" it, it's the handlers job to teach a dog that that kinda stupid behavior isn't tollerated under any circumstance!..... the dog needs control, and to knock off the dog aggression.

Now that's a to-the-point opinion! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad the O.P. posted. I think maybe this is an aspect of dog ownership in which people can lose sight of their role as handlers --- both in correcting for aggression and in being 100% in control of their dogs. Good reminder to us all, maybe, about pack leadership. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To reply to the ORIGINAL post, a couple things come to mind.

1. Your male GSD is 12 months old, becoming more physically and mentally mature (although still far from grown up) He will continue to test his boundaries with other dogs and with you.

2. The stick, in close proximity to you, was a trigger IMO. I don't let ANY of my dogs carry or play with toys around other dogs. Why? Because of just this scenario. I have excellent control of my dogs on a walk, but none of them are allowed to carry a stick or toy unless it's just me and one dog at a time. It adds a whole element of competition and possessiveness that I don't allow. I am the leader and it's against my rules. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I walk all my dogs together and sometimes Ed adds his dog to the mix. That makes 5 dogs, 4 of them female and all of the girls are constantly vying for the top position. If I allowed toys or sticks it could get ugly.

I feel that in your situation described originally, your GSD considered the two of you owners of the stick and reacted as the leader in the situation. He may have reacted differently to the Golden, had you been a distance away and the same thing happened. He got more confident with you close to "back him up" but at the same time felt enough in charge to react, instead of letting you (as the leader) deal with it.

My solution would be more leadership with your dog, controlling him with a long line or ecollar and making toys or sticks around other dogs a no-no.

Just my experience, for what it's worth! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />