Here I'll compare it to this. If I walk up to my dog n smack him on the head, odds are he'll think I'm mad at him n lower his head n think "what the heck did I do now?". Now play with the dog n roughhouse with him n smack him on the head just as hard but with positive "I'm playing with you" body language n run away from him. Odds are the dog will think it's a game and chase after you to play. Now, I'm not saying smack your dog on the head LOL, but everything you do with your dog conditions them to the way you want them to act. It's all learned behavior. So now apply this to using a prong collar. If I prong the dog n have a serious air about me, the dog will be submissive wondering what the heck he did wrong, but if you prong the dog while playing with the dog as a "come on heel with me, good boy! yes!" and reward with a tug or a ball, the way the dog interprets the prong correction is completely opposite. So if you introduce the prong to the dog as being something positive. The harder the dog the less sensitive they are and the less you have to worry about submissive behavior, but you can make a softer dog understand the same thing if you approach it correctly.

I like the dead ring personally, I'll use the live ring on a dog who doesn't wanna pay attention to me. If I don't have a choker on the dog, which I rarely do, n I'm correcting for an aggression issue, I don't pop the leash I just lift up the dog n tell them "NO STOP IT". Popping the leash will put them further into a frenzy as I said before. This is what I meant with handler aggressive dogs... lets say you have an aggressive human that likes to get into barfights. You hit him on the head n he'll hit you back with no hesitation. Dogs are the same, a handler aggressive dog will feel the pain n come at you because he didn't like it. So if the dog is being aggressive to you, or a cat, or another person or dog, the prong just pisses them off more and puts them into a heavier frenzy because the pain makes the dog direct his anger toward the thing they're pissed off about. Handy in bitework in some situations, because you can prong the dog and have the dogs anger directed at the decoy. But anyway, lifting the dog up on the choker limits the dogs options, first comes anger, then comes panic, then comes calm submission as they realize you're in complete control. Taking away the dogs options takes away their option to go into drive. Pronging the dog gives them the option ot get pissed off at whoever's inflicting the pain. If it's handler aggression during obedience you'll find that most handlers get bitten in the hand because that's what the dog sees move each time the correction comes. If it's while they're barking at a cat, they think the cat is somehow inflicting the pain.

I'm really horrible at trying to explain this topic in writing though, so I hope its not too all over the place

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

I'm really horrible at trying to explain this topic in writing though, so I hope its not too all over the place

I know what you mean about trying to express these concepts and experiences in writing. You've done a better job of it than I ever could, IMO. The progression of "collar intensity" (or correction intensity) around here (with SchH goals in mind) is very, VERY gradual - even with dogs who as individuals, or through breed specific tendancies, tend to be handler sensitive. Or have other issues.

I would also be intersted in your thoughts on "moving" between prey and defense drives in protection work (SchH) using two leashes, two collars, and a really good helper. (prey/defense) Dave often gives credit to Bernhard for teaching him the techniques he typically uses, while acknowleging the techniques need to be adapted to individual dogs, and breed specific on a broader and more general scale.

Beth

Perhaps beyond the scope of this thread?

Back to the O.P. and Mike's thoughts about the prong v. choke: I thought it was clear, and that it put into words something lots of us have experienced (I imagine), which is having the result of revving up a dog with a prong collar when what you're trying to do is lower the frenzied behavior.

I do indeed think the two kinds of collars are for different goals, exactly as Mike posted.

Sorry if I strayed this thread off topic at all Jenni. Just my dog is at a similar age as Jenni's and has done some of the same behaviours in the recent past. ie Going ape on the leash to get to other dogs that were barking and carrying on, me being relatively inexperienced it basically shocked me. (the loss of control) This behaviour to me needed to be corrected and corrected quick before it led to something more uncontrollable/extreme.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

I'm really horrible at trying to explain this topic in writing though, so I hope its not too all over the place

No not at all, It was very clear to me!

I really appreciate Mike's and the other's explanations about the tools of the trade. ie prong vs choke and we even touched upon the e-collar in place of a choke.

So to proof and correct a dog that may have aggression like this. Is to choke the dog off by lifting it so that it doesn't have any option but to submit. The tool is the choke NOT the prong. Meaning you are telling the dog that you are the leader and letting him/her know that you make the desicions not he dog you are handling. Did I understand correctly?

Val, I agree with your e-collar remarks (and I would ONLY use a remote training system in accordance with Ed's DVD http://www.leerburg.com/318.htm as well, especially with a "teenage" animal) -- I started my Akita on an e-collar before she was a year old & believe they can be the best handling choice for women (and men) who lack the physique, or maybe even the temperament, to administer proper corrections on a dominant dog collar with sufficient strength to make a dog-aggro/high-drive K9 respect its owner as alpha...

 Quote: geoff empey

So to proof and correct a dog that may have aggression like this. Is to choke the dog off by lifting it so that it doesn't have any option but to submit. The tool is the choke NOT the prong. Meaning you are telling the dog that you are the leader and letting him/her know that you make the desicions not he dog you are handling. Did I understand correctly?

Pretty much yep. Make the punishment fit the crime though. You don't have to choke a dog till they pass out for barking at another dog, you just want to do it enough to where the dog understands what you are trying to communicate to them. All very calm and very quick. Lift up "no, stop it".

Got ya, Thanks. So in Ed's 'how to fit a prong collar' he has a safety method using a dominant dog collar as a back up to the prong, http://www.leerburg.com/prong.htm#safe can the choke still be used if needed with the prong working correctly? Or does it require 2 leashes? As the way the dominant dog collar has to be fitted you can't really grab it in a hurry if it wasn't hooked to a leash.

Using a choker as a safety for a prong is just to make sure that if the prong breaks, that there's a second collar to keep the leash attached to the dog. If you wanna use 2 leashes on the dog you can leave an 8" tab on the nylon choker that you can grab if you need to. Something without a loop handle so the dog can't tangle themselves in it.

 Quote: Mike J Schoonbrood

Perhaps beyond the scope of this thread?

Yes...for sure. I continue to enjoy your posts on the subject, as I enjoyed the videos of you working your dogs. It was apparent to me from the vids that we have (I think) quite a lot of common ground in our training.

Beth