:rolleyes: I happens all too often. Unfortunately, there are some vets who only see dollar signs when you walk in their office. The more vaccinations you agree to and the sicker your dog gets, the more money in their pockets. I've run into a few like this. There are so many good vets out there that I wouldn't waste my time on one like that.

I recently switched vets because of the very reason you are talking about- the blank look, the "it would be less expensive" speech. Sad thing is I was not really even looking to switch vets until I started questioning things, and one day I went into a vet to by Frontline, and asked the receptionist if I could have a DR call me about the neccessity of vaccinating every year, and she said "sure, we have a number of clients who dont vaccinate every year and depending on the animal we dont reccommend it." I asked about titers and she knew exactly what I was talking about pulled up the info that I needed, including cost and did not once look at me crosseyed. I made an appointment that day.

I dont want to be treated like an imbecile for researching and trying to do the healthiest thing for my animals, and this vet had the right attitude and was open to a discussion on the good and bad points about vaccinating- and thats all I am asking for.

The problem I have is not the vets...My training center in Iowa(don't know how other states work) is governed by the Iowa Dept of Agriculture. Our DOA states that all pets coming into my establishment must be vaccinated. (Not just Rabies). If something happens in my center and a dog is not vaccinated I can be fined up to $300/day that said dog was in my center. Also, held completly liable for anything that occurs. My inspector also doesn't agree with the idea of crates. So everytime she comes we get to have a debate on why I have crates. However, in the last conversation she mentioned how she found one of her dogs on the side of the road. See it is ok to run loose, but don;t you dare confine them. Geesh...

Anyway, back to the vaccines. It was mentioned by someone finding a boarding kennel that would accept titers. I would love to at my kennel, however, the DOA says no. So it is not necessarily the kennels choice.

The chances of getting nasal cancer from Bordetella vaccine are slim.. but I wish to emphasise another aspect.

I guess some of you believe that the presence of a high titer reflects immunity. Unfortunately things are not necessarily simple. This has something to do with how titers are measured. The most common way is by using an ELISA technique. Essentially one detects the bordetella antibody with another antibody that has a signal molecule attached to it. In the veterinary world the ELISA assays are less well standardized and the signal antibodies can have significant cross reactivity with other non Bordatella antigens. This will give what is called as a false positive. The chances of getting an ELISA false positive result are higher than getting nasal cancer from the vaccine.
In humans, the assays are rigorously tested to prevent false positives, but they still happen. To give an example, the standard way to screen for HIV is by an ELISA assay. This result still needs to be confirmed by a western blot technique. This happens more frequently than one would anticipate. In a human population that is low risk for HIV, the incidence of HIV ELISA false positives is quite high.

If you dont want to vaccinate, thats o.k. but nasal cancer should not be a consideration

Originally posted by czechgsd:
If you dont want to vaccinate, thats o.k. but nasal cancer should not be a consideration :rolleyes: The chances may be slim, but anytime there is a possibility of something being linked to cancer, it is at least worth considering. Especially when you're talking about something like Bordatella, which isn't very difficult to treat if your dog contracts it. Unless you're planning to board your dog and it is a requirement, why would you even want to take the chance?

And let's get away from the subject of cancer for a minute. What about slowly breaking down an animal's immune system by over vaccinating? I understand that in some situations, you have to vaccinate for Bordatella, but if you aren't in a situation where you need to do that, you may be doing more harm than good in the long run.

And these people who get every single vaccination that their vet recommends, drive me completely insane. There's nothing worse than bombarding your animals immune system with a bunch of different vaccines all at the same time.

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but I've seen the results of over vaccination first hand. It's very sad and extremely difficult to deal with. For those of you who haven't seen it or aren't convinced that vaccinating is a bad idea, I welcome you to come and stay in my home for a weekend. I guarantee you will change your mind.

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Originally posted by mspindler:
:rolleyes: The chances may be slim, but anytime there is a possibility of something being linked to cancer, it is at least worth considering. Especially when you're talking about something like Bordatella, which isn't very difficult to treat if your dog contracts it. Unless you're planning to board your dog and it is a requirement, why would you even want to take the chance?

*Anything* that someone says may be linked to cancer must be considered, no matter how anecdotal and ill-supported it is? Okay, consider this. Fumes from vehicles are definitely not good for your and some are carcinogenic. At the height that dogs are at, they breathe in a much higher concentration of them than we get. Now pick your dog up when you go walkies. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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And these people who get every single vaccination that their vet recommends, drive me completely insane. There's nothing worse than bombarding your animals immune system with a bunch of different vaccines all at the same time.

Yeah, so unlike the hundreds of challenges your dog's body receives every day by dint of being alive. Believe me, bacteria, fungi and viruses don't line up in a neat little row, waiting their turn to try proliferating in the body. And depending on the environment, the body may be exposed to the same infective agents several times in the course of its life. Vaccination does challenge the immune system (that's the whole point), but the concept that the immune system is destroyed simply by being challenged (i.e. doing what it's designed to do) is one I regard with deepest skeptism.

Pardon me for not considering anecdote data, but what are the symptoms of over-vaccination and how do you know for sure that vaccination is at the root of them?

Before you charge that I must believe vaccination to be 'perfectly safe' (whatever that ludicrious term means) let me tell you that I don't. Heck, breathing isn't safe for that matter...it's just a bit more important than the risks. So, let's see your data.

Dei.

Well said Dei,

There is a chance I will get hit by a bus walking across the street, should I stop that too? Chances are slim, but it could still happen.

I'm not going to continue debating with people who are making ridiculous comparisons. Vaccines HAVE been proven to be dangerous, and DO cause things such as immune disease, cancer, etc., etc., etc. Children & animals both have died from vaccinations, although you usually don't hear much about those things. My vet just had a 1 1/2 year old Great Dane, who had no health problems previously, drop dead after his owner insisted he be vaccinated. These types of situations are very sad, and they are senseless deaths...and don't kid yourself, they do happen.

Why do you think so many GSDs are dying of cancer at 8 & 9 years of age?? Do you know what the expected life span of a GSD is? Not 8 or 9, not even 12 years, but 17 years!

For you to compare the dangers of vaccines with the possibility of getting hit by a bus is just nonsense. There's a HUGE difference between an accident and knowingly doing something that has been proven to be harmful. I could give you an extensive list of symptoms of vaccination problems & miasms, but I don't have the time or patience for that. If you want to learn about what's really going on, pick up a copy of What Vets Don't Tell You About Vaccines which Ed sells on his website. This book is a real eye opener.

Why don't you ask Ed what he thinks about vaccinations? I'm sure he'd be happy to share with you what he thinks on this topic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

As Mr. Gaster pointed out, some of us do not have an option whether to vaccinate or not. Using working dogs, you best be in compliance with state law. As far as health matters go, it is a fact of life, working dogs are going to have a shorter life span than the average pet or sport dog. 17 years, as claimed may be the average life span of a GSD, but in my career which started in 1966, I've never seen a working dog live that long. While we give our dogs the best care possible, working for a living is hard on them. It literally breaks down thier bodies, it is not an easy life. If you've ever had the opportunity to observe a necropsy of a working dog, you understand exactly what I mean.

As someone who lost a family member to cancer last year, do I want my dog to get cancer? No, definately not. But life is a crap shoot. You never know what can happen. Or to quote a line from Forrest Gump, "Life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

Will vaccinating or not vaccinating prevent or encourage disease? There is enough positive evidence to support both sides of the issue.

I have vaccinated my dog off and on (really only 2X) in the past 5 years since I began to read about the health concerns regarding vaccinations. Unfortunately the rabies vaccine is required yearly in the province of Ontario. I also plan on travelling more and boarding kennels require many yearly vaccines. If I time my vacations right I could extend the time between vaccinations to almost 2 years. eg. Last August he was vaccinated. This August I go on vacation. If I show the papers saying he's due at the end of the month I can get away with another year almost. I may have to give him the rabies one though.

Training schools usually require proof of vaccination as well. It's a pain.