My experience is that most decoys actually use the right arm. Primarily because more are right handed than left handed. As for targeting, when teaching I always say; it's not the job of the dog to hit the sleeve, it's the job of the decoy to get the sleeve in the dog's mouth. I've trained a few police patrol dogs, attended a few certification trial, olympics etc and I just don't see the 90% left handed. As for the "one bite" rule, that seems to be a problem with your DA. Are officers restricted to only one use of force. Can they, for example, only strike a person once with a baton? Only one spray from an OC container, only one shock from a taser? It's unrealistic to say a dog will not release, during a fight, for a better grip or after being physically removed by a scrote. I'll say this about dogs I train; if they did come off the bite and refuse to continue the fight, they would become someones pet or single purpose detector, if it was a dual purpose dog. One bite rule. I have to admit, 42 years in this business and that is the first time I've ever heard that. I guess a muzzle on duty will be the next step.

DFrost

Lance wrote...
"If what you say is true and they are not trained to bite a paticular part of the body, why is it 90% of all trainers where a left arm bite sleeve. When a suit is worn 90% of all decoys all take the bite on the left side."

Because they are right handed. They catch the same way in the suit because thats whats comfortable for them. Personally, I think its wrong. Whats the point of wearing a suit then?

Lance wrote..
"A dog with to much civil not only is'nt calm in his grip, he is closer to the edge of coming off the bite tucking tail and running, they also tend to want to grip as far away from the center of the body as they can.

I've yet to see a dog so civil that it will come off the bite. Never civil enough to tuck tail and run. A dog like that is too defensive, weak nerved, and bites away from the body out of avoidance.

Lance wrote...
"The bottom line is, if the dog has been trained by a GOOD trainer the foundation will be the same."

Yes, but foundations can be undermined by poor training or damaging the dog.

Lance wrote....
"In my town the law allows for one bite if the officers are in danger, a second and third bite make laws suits, (per our city attorny) I realize this is a general statement.

See my earlier reply concerning BH and FB dogs. City attorneys aren't hanging their asses out there like the handlers are.

Howard

You beat me to it David. I'm typing while you're hitting submit.

yes as a matter of fact in Ca. law suits run rampped, they use to many bites like shooting more time than nessisary, RE: unloading a magazine . It shows a possible lack of controle, it doesnt have to make sense, there are many law suits that dont make sense. Are you saying decoys catch on the right because they are right handed? that make no sense, I have been to a lot of western states police canine ass. competitions there might be one decoy catching on the right side. They catch on the left and strike with their right hand. If you think its the job of the decoy to put the sleeve , arm, pocket or anything else in the dogs mouth rather than the dogs job to target. What are you thinking ??????? thats like saying its the bad guys job to jump in front of your bullet! If you think the more civil the dog the better, instead of a balance dog, I would'nt want you to pick my dog. Dogs that are hectic in their bites, un able to bite with a full grip, using only their canines are not fully committed to the bite and can be driven off, and will be by a bad guy high on meth feeling no pain. You and I are oviously not on the same page. I will take a well balanced, full biting, calm on the grip dog any day of the week over a partial biting, hectic, chewy,un clear, overly civil biting dog. I think you are living in a different time than I. I can't believe you said its the decoys job to put the sleeve in the dogs mouth. what are you thinking???????

did you mean its the decoys job to give the dog a good target?????

Lance, I have been following this thread with great interest.

I happen to agree with Howard and David’s line of thought here. It makes sense.

I believe you may have misinterpreted their position on the matter...but, I will let them speak for themselves.

Howard..... You have never seen a dog driven off the bite. I have. I have seen many people including police man that think their dogs are all that, only to be disapointed when their dogs are run. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. I will never want a dog that is overly civil, rather than a well balanced, calm in the grip, full mouth biting, clear in the head dog.... and then you said foundations can be undermined. so what are you saying that you dont want your dog to have a good foundation ? that doesnt make any sense to me. I want my dog to have a very good foundation because when the sh-- it the fan the dog will rely on his foundation and what he has been taught. It does not matter whether it is a sport dog or a PSD, it needs to have a good foundation. Are you really arguing this point?

Lance, I'm going to say that the tone of your posts has deteriorated to "unacceptable."

QUOTES: What are you thinking ??????? .... I would'nt want you to pick my dog. I think you are living in a different time than I. ... what are you thinking??????? ... Are you really arguing this point? ... END

I would recommend that you try to maintain the level of courtesy of David and Howard.

The O.P. asked if there was a difference in grip training for PSDs, PPDs, and Schutzhund-type sports dogs. The three parts are probably best answered by people experienced in each part.

Connie, It's not what you say its how you say it. You can't hear my tone. I'm sorry if I have been offensive, was'nt my intention.

Lance,

To begin with, you have my reply, and Davids confused. I said that I've never seen a dog that is too civil driven off the bite. I even explained that IMO a dog driven off the bite would NOT be considered civil but a nerve bag with defense and avoidance issues. I think you and I have differing opinions of what a civil dog really is. Earlier in the week I posted a thread suggesting that people on this board put a little more info in their profile so that we have an idea who we are conversing with. Not that this has any bearing on how I will respond to your tone...it just gives me an idea of how I should take your post.

Secondly, I stated that most people catch dogs with the LEFT arm because they are right handed. That has been my experience in my neck of the woods anyway. Apparently not in Davids, oh well. I catch left handed and I am right handed. It is more comfortable for me. In the suit I refuse to use it like a sleeve. IMO most advanced trained dogs are ruined with a sleeve. Once the dog is biting correctly a PSD or PPD should be trained further...that means suit and muzzle work.

Thirdly, I never said I wanted a dog overly civil. I've had one and its a pain in the ass.( He was never run off the sleeve either) Also, where did I say that I didn't want a dog that was well balanced with a full calm grip? I personally dont have a problem with a dog who has great civil characteristics and who actively fights unprotected people. What cop wouldn't want that? You have no problem assuming things about me that aren't true. When it comes to dog training I don't have this image in my head that my dogs are the greatest. I am always honest with myself otherwise I'd put a few hours into my dog and call it good the rest of his life.

And finally...Yes I've seen patrol dogs that are nerve bags (we got two, and NO I didn't select them or they wouldn't be here.) Or run off the field. It's sad but it happens.

But back to the member profile point I brought up. Are you a police officer? Have you ever worked a PSD? Have you ever almost had you life snuffed out by a scumbag but was saved by your dog? Well, I have so I know what I'm talking about when it comes to training and working a dog thats some day going to have to save your ass.

Instead of flying off the handle when you reply, try to be a little more civil :-)

Humbly,

Howard