 Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: Jery Ledford ]
#162300 - 11/11/2007 10:57 AM |
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Jery, I see that more and more with canine units. I agree there may be those rare instances a dog would be used in a misdemeanor, but it's rare. A recent event we had with a new handler. He was tracking a suspect that had struck another officer with his car. it was in the city, which quite honestly we don't do much of. He approached a cellar to an abondoned house, kicked in the door and the suspect was standing against the back wall, with his arms raised. The dog took a direct approach towards the suspect, the handler commanded out, and the dog stopped. The officer backing him up said he should have let the dog finish the bite. As much as I would have loved to see the suspect get bitten, the handler did do the right thing. However, he and I did have a long discussion about kicking open doors like that. Tactics, however, are a different discussion. My point, I guess, even with a fleeing felon, the dog may not get the bite.
DFrost
Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again. |
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: David C.Frost ]
#162331 - 11/11/2007 03:21 PM |
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Carol, no I don't particularly think where the dog is housed makes all that much difference. There are police dogs that live in kennels, there are police dogs that live in a kennel at the handlers house, there are dogs that live in the house. It's a matter of control and maintaining whatever standard the dog is trained to attain.
Very true.
I said, there are differences in rules of engagement in a combat zone. Even that would depend on where was one assigned in a combat zone. There are also restricted areas, clearly marked that have different rules for the protection of whatever asset may be in such area. Beyond that, there are a lot of MWD's that are not assigned to combat zones. They patrol housing areas, base assets, business areas just like a civilian counterpart would do. Many civilian departments have adopted a policy of not using a dog to apprehend for misdemeanors. Things certainly could have changed since my 23 years in the MWD program, however, except for a combat situation, or a restricted area, simply failure to stop when told was not cause to release a dog on a person.
OK i deffently worded that wrong, it all depends on the overall situation. If there is someone walking down the street and he does not stop when i tell him i cant release my dog. It does fall under Disobeying a lawful order and from there things are ify. It all depends on situation and location.
As for wanting the dog to act instead of react, how could I not agree. It's one of the reasons I'm opposed to bark and hold. I tell the dog to attack, he attacks, I tell him to stop, he stops. I don't want him reacting to anything. Which brings me to my original comment. I find it improbable a well trained dog, without provocation, is going to bite the first person in reach when the words "get 'em" are spoken in general conversation. Maybe the military doesn't practice "false runs" any more. I know they've changed a lot. In a false run, even with provocation, the dog was not allowed to bite, without being commanded.
DFrost
Ah glad i am not the only person agenst the bark and hold. Nice trick but i dont think to much more of it then that. Again, i was not saying i wanted my dog to act when the words are spoken in general conversation. Yes, we still train the "False Runs" and "Stand Offs"
Granted i think things might have changed though. Are dogs are trained to attack on any and all sudden or aggressive movements.
Michael.West
"Everything flows down leash"
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: Debbie Bruce ]
#162332 - 11/11/2007 03:23 PM |
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So the other handler when ahead and told him "No we tell them "Get Em"" And on that note the dog came up leash and right for my chest. luckily my reflexes have gotten a lot faster after decoying for this dog
Does the the dog's reaction have anything to do with him being conditioned to bite you during training?
Quite possibly, but this dog has always been overly aggressive. This handler has gone a LONG way and calming this dog down.
Michael.West
"Everything flows down leash"
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: David C.Frost ]
#162333 - 11/11/2007 03:28 PM |
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Brad, what Howard said. In addition, I'd add, we would allow the decoy to approach the dog handler, he could be yelling, waving arms, even threatening, as in lunging, or exaggerated arm and body movements. The decoy was NOT allowed to touch the dog or the handler. During all this nonsense, the dog was not allowed to break position. I've seen them tremble, bark, lower their head between their shoulders and look like a vulture, but they could not break position. This exercise was not always awarded with a bite. It may be archiac, ancient, old time etc, methods of training, but I still use it. Howard really summed it up well with his description of the dog NOT reacting to the stimulus but acting to the handler's command.
DFrost
Ug.. after reading this i really do need to work on my false run.. 
Michael.West
"Everything flows down leash"
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: Michael West ]
#162336 - 11/11/2007 03:54 PM |
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Micheal, when I was in a combat zone, I didn't care of my dog went off on a stiffend breeze. I didn't care that other handlers knew they couldn't get within 15 feet, those were isolated instances though. As a side note there was nothing more irritating than trying to hold on to an out of control dog when the feces hit the circulating air mover. As a warning system however, I kept him real edgy.
DFrost
Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again. |
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: Michael West ]
#162367 - 11/11/2007 08:06 PM |
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I'd add, we would allow the decoy to approach the dog handler, he could be yelling, waving arms, even threatening, as in lunging, or exaggerated arm and body movements. The decoy was NOT allowed to touch the dog or the handler. During all this nonsense, the dog was not allowed to break position. I've seen them tremble, bark, lower their head between their shoulders and look like a vulture, but they could not break position. This exercise was not always awarded with a bite. It may be archiac, ancient, old time etc, methods of training, but I still use it.
David,
Don't feel bad. I used this very method to fix an out of control dog who over reacted to decoy stimulus. Now he waits for the handler commands no matter what I do in front of him. Some times the old ways are still the best. The handler is much happier, and healthier now.
Howard
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: David C.Frost ]
#162372 - 11/11/2007 08:19 PM |
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Great info guys, and gal.
David, I have seen a few trainers insist that the handler hold the dog before and after agitation from the decoy to fix that same issue with a dog. From what I have seen, it works like a charm! My current dog gets a bit edgy when on the field. as stated, he will tremble to the point that at times I can hear his teeth chatter. If the decoy agitates within close proximity, Osci will not move an inch, even to blink.
Bark and Hold?..I thought that was for pretty dogs that put on a good show...In the real world...Hmmm...Not where I come from.
those that hide will be found, those that run will be bitten |
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: Jery Ledford ]
#162378 - 11/11/2007 08:39 PM |
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"" Bark and Hold?..I thought that was for pretty dogs that put on a good show...In the real world...Hmmm...Not where I come from."""
It had become the politically correct way doing business in some police departments. Personally, I believe it's wrong, places the officer in greater danger and actually will cause more unintentional bites than bite and hold. In discussions with handlers that are required to use B/H, they don't like it, and will say that in reality, it just doesn't work all that well. Does look good though. I will retire before I train officers that way.
DFrost
Any behavior that is reinforced is more likely to occur again. |
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: David C.Frost ]
#162380 - 11/11/2007 08:50 PM |
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Hey guys, sorry to interrupt but here's something Ed wrote about the bark & hold versus the bite & hold in police dogs:
http://leerburg.com/qapolice.htm#bh
I do enjoy hearing all the points of view on this, even though I'll most likely never get to use any of this knowledge myself 
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Re: Finding the switch.
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#162392 - 11/11/2007 09:01 PM |
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