When they start training again for sure have your dog evaluated by some of your local Schz club members that way you can at least have that bridge crossed. It's all a moot point, if your dog is not stable physically and mentally enough to do the work in the first place.

Reread Mike Schoonbrood's post as to me he says it way better than I could've about having an open mind to possible pitfalls of training your dog in protection. It doesn't get any clearer than that! Mike's advice always kicks butt!!

As for Steven's comments about him being a danger to your dog it is tongue and cheek but very much true. Many people are very afraid of dogs any type of dog and will freak out over a off leash dog approaching them on hiking trial. I had a room mate who had a pair of Jack Russells and we were doing a trial in a national park close to here about 10 years ago. The dogs were off leash and bounding off ahead we hear this commotion yelling and screaming mixed in with the dogs barking. One (or both) of the dogs had bounded over to an older couple and the man was deathly afraid of dogs and started pummeling one of the Jack Russells with an ash/maple walking stick. The dog was unresponsive and bleeding from the head, he had to be rushed off to a vet and lived but the dog was never the same most likely suffered some brain damage. That's why I keep my own dog tied at the very least to a 7m long line as a drag in any hiking I do and do not let my dog wander any ways off from me. Having a working line Malinois I'd be a fool not to, plus to at least show respect to other trial users.

 Quote:

Is this representative of the type of people that participate in shutzhund??

No. Over all, I would venture to say that most people probably paid more for their dogs, and would probably sentence your dog to the gallows in a Schutzhund-militia court if your dog endangered their vast investment of time and money.

Me? I'm just in it for the fun, so I let people off easy with impromptu defensive violence with my empty hands and feet. Ka ra te, if you will.

 Quote: Steven Lepic

 Quote:

Is this representative of the type of people that participate in shutzhund??

Me? I'm just in it for the fun, so I let people off easy with impromptu defensive violence with my empty hands and feet. Ka ra te, if you will.

Oh, Carol-that was nothing. When he gets REALLY down and dirty, you will find this in your front yard: http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d33/Jenwilliams918/roostack002.jpg

Yes ma'am. Steve Lepic is a danger.

 Quote: david eagle

Carole: I think it's representative of plain spoken people who are sick of uncontrolled dogs running around off leash while oblivious owners call (to no avail). ... what Steven Lepic said illustrates the point that we all tried to make; your dog should not be off leash. ...

A dog who is off leash, not under e-collar control, with a "pretty good" recall, running ahead and out of sight of the handler -- this is an uncontrolled dog.

This dog is not being protected by his pack leader, either from aggression from other dogs or from legal recourse if the dog causes trouble. The owner of the dog not under control is the person at fault in a resulting bad situation.

I too think that Steven was trying to make an important point.... along with several other very dog-savvy posters.

Thank you everybody for your opinions. It has been an education for me.
I get the feeling many of you think I just run around with my dogs off leash all the time. They are leashed dogs except in my fenced backyard and when we hike. When I go hiking I go VERY early in the morning when other people are not out yet. If there are cars at the trailhead already (rarely) I go somewhere else.
Once you hike out past a couple of miles rarely do you see anymore people anywhere. When I do run into people it is on the way back and close to the trail head if it's late enough. My dogs are put on leash then. When people approach us I get off the trail with my dogs and let the people pass. I am always listening and watching for other people. It is normally my choice not to have my dogs interacting with other people because I don't want other people inadvertently teaching my dog behaviors I don't approve of. I therefore keep a very watchful eye for people that may be ahead. People aren't that quiet when they hike and are easy to spot ahead of time. I asked my original question because I was trying to come up with a worse case scenario. I just want to educate myself about all possibilities. My dogs spend much of the time not on the trail but running in the woods next to the trail scenting and exploring. I'm watching them all the time to see where they are and do frequent recalls with treats they love.
One of my dogs is a rescue (the one I was considering for shutzhund) and came to me with a very submissive urinating fear of people. She kept a great distance from people but would stand there barking at them. I gave people (carefully chosen) treats and had them feed them to her. She has become much more accepting of strangers. She will ignore them now if they are ignoring her. If they are friendly to her she will allow them to pet her and she is friendly. I am now in the process of training a release word for her to know she is allowed to interact with someone else. I wanted to socialize her to people because if she ever got loose while I wasn't around I wanted people to be able to help her. She is now more accepting of letting people hold her leash. Yes, I had different dog get loose from my backyard while I was at work a couple years ago, so I want my dogs to allow people to leash them so the people could, hopefully, keep them untill I could get them.
I have since boarded and screwed chicken wire to the bottom of the fence and it extends 3 feet along the ground into the yard all along the fence property. My dogs are confined to the garage and an attached kennel I built while I am at work now. Lesson learned. But I still want my dogs to be socialized enough to let other people help them or take care of them if needed in emergency.

I take my dogs to an offleash dog area.!! It is an open area of several acres. I go at times when I know it is rarely visited.
If other people show up with dogs I just go to another field out of site. If they start heading my way I just walk away and go the other direction. I'm always on the watch for other people in the area because I prefer not to have the interaction with dogs we don't know. If my friend is there with her dogs they are all allowed to run together as they are part of my dogs extended pack and they all get along great.
So, yes I do allow my dogs off leash at times. I try to be very careful about it. It is such a joy to see them run and play chasing squirrells and rolling in god knows what..!! I just can't take that god given dogs' joy to run in the wind!! :-)
Have a great evening and have fun training the dogs.
Carole

 Quote: carole seller

I hike with my dogs off leash quite a bit and they will get out in front of me around a curve where I can't see them. When I get around the corner people will be interecting with my dogs (petting and such).

Carole...Carole are you still with us?
Had enough of why off lead is a bad idea? Hope its changed your mind. These guys are so much better then I am at getting any idea across, but off lead really is a sore point we can worry to death....... For good reason.

To address directly as I can your question of agression and Schutzhund work bleeding into everyday life, I can only offer my present day experience up to now.

As Mike Schoonbrood said, each dog is an individual and you must be the guage as how it effects them, and how you deal with those effects in your daily life.
I will try, in few words, to convey how things have changed with my young dog with some short work in the field. She's about 20 months old, we started bite work late somewhere about 6 or 7 weeks ago. But we have been doing tracking and ob. as a real enterprise for quite a while. After the first session the helper suggest we could go for our first level if I so choose to (I must brag!). Any ways, what I've seen from the first is a difference in her (oh how to put this?) general look out. She never has had alot to do with people, she could take them or leave them, rather blase` lets say. She looks a little closer now. Not agressive, just closer. In her own enviroment (home) she is what I would term as more sharp. That is she reacts to noises or unfamilar things much quicker. Of course the work has only put an accent on her prey drive which was very high to begin with, and making handling an even more of a consent concern. She is even more indendent than before (if possible) we started, she is gaining confidence. It is all good so far. Do I expect her to become more agressive? No. Over her life I've noted how even she is. Am I ever going to give her the chance to make the wrong decision? Not if I can help it.


As somebody here said, 'Schutzhund is a blast'
Randy

 Quote:

One of my dogs is a rescue (the one I was considering for shutzhund) and came to me with a very submissive urinating fear of people.

In any case, that dog is probably better suited for obedience training than schutzhund work. You can get involved in the A & B parts (tracking & obedience) and get titles in those areas. The dog will gain confidence and a sense of security from obedience training.

Fortunately, you haven't run into someone who has had their dogs jumped by off-lead dogs. Those folks tend to take more aggressive action towards off-lead dogs -- starting with pepper spray. Walking staffs make a pretty fair club when needed. Some folks pack.

 Quote: Charlie Snyder

 Quote:

One of my dogs is a rescue (the one I was considering for shutzhund) and came to me with a very submissive urinating fear of people.

In any case, that dog is probably better suited for obedience training than schutzhund work. You can get involved in the A & B parts (tracking & obedience) and get titles in those areas. The dog will gain confidence and a sense of security from obedience training.

That's a great idea!

She isn't so submissive anymore. I've done lots of training with her and she is excelling in agility. She has plenty of confidence in learning situations and knows learning is a game we play and offers behaviors confidently.
Honestly, I may pass on shutzhund just because I get the feeling there are a lot of antagonistic people involved.
Thank you to the folks sharing their constructive ideas for me.