Quote: Yuko Blum

As you can see in the video,

The browser I'm using at the moment won't show it. Sorry -- I was answering without seeing it.

 Quote: connie

Maybe that was what saved me: I HAD to go very very slowly because that's how I was getting the instructions.

Lol, good point Connie!

Of course I probably win the prize for the most slowly trained exercise in history

It's weird though, he doesn't mouth while he's running with the dumbell, he doesn't mouth while he's sitting in front holding the dumbell, the only very brief "chompchomp" he does is just as he's sitting down in the front with the dumbell.

And even then, it's only when he's really excited. I guess it won't be much of a problem in an actual sch trial since the retrieve comes after a whole bunch of heeling.
Heeling around for half an hour usually takes the edge off his "crazy nerves" (borrowed that expression from Bernhard - he uses it to qualify his bitch, Eyra, I think).

Taro's equally as nutty as Ms. Op de Hyde. LOL.

 Quote: yuko blum

The only place where Bernhard corrects the dog for mouthing the dumbell is in the sitting-front position. He says it's the only appropriate place to correct for mouthing.
I originally did correct Taro (just like Bernhard demonstrates) when he mouthed in the front position, and that fixed it within a session.

Since I do not have the video, could you tell me how this correction works?

I started my retreive with back chaining the hold and I tried some corrections for mouthing that I read about in a Sch book. BAD IDEA for my particular dog. He can take a leash correction no big deal, but holding his mouth around the object or giving a tap under his chin was a disaster for us.

As I mentioned to you in the PM, we do not have to use a dumbell for our exam, so it is pretty easy to teach a retrieve!!!

This is what I did after my failed backchaining the hold attempt:

Farley was a dog that would not hold and wanted to drop things at my feet and certainly did not want to sit and hold at the same time.

This is what worked for me. Firstly, I never picked another thing up of the floor for the dog again. Any casual retrieving required the dog to deliver to hand. Was frustrating in the begining, but I just kept moving back and encouraging the dog to bring it all the way to me and then the dog got that I was never going to pick the item up off the ground and throw it. Mostly I quit playing informal retrieve games for a while.

Next. I ditched my formal retreive item and worked with something else. I noticed he would hold a sock in his mouth naturally and that he is motivated by fighting/tugging. I put a ball inside the sock. Worked on tug...I let go of tug, I move back, dog comes in for more tug, we play tug, I let go of tug, I move back, dog comes in for tugging and so on.

Once the dog was anticipating tugging, comming to me and holding the object, I casually asked him to sit. And he finally did with out dropping it. Butt touched the floor, item still in mouth, Woo hoo, mark reward by tugging. I did not ask for any holding of any lenghth of time at first.

Once we had finished working on the dog running to me and presenting for tugs, I put it into a formal retreive. Short at first. Dog sits at heel, item thrown, dog released, dog brings item back, sit/hold look at me for tugs. I would move back and encourage verbally the dog to come right to me at first and would use the command "come", but he quickly learned tugs were comming so wanted to get back quickly.

Once it the retreive was formalized, the dog knew what was expected whenever we started a retrieve from a heel, the exersise would finish with the dog holding in front. I then started to change the retreive objects. First to a leather tug, for a few weeks, then to a jute roll and so on. Now that the retrieve was fomalized and the dog knew what was expected, the item could be changed up. The out was rewarded by giving the item directly back to the dog on occasion and playing tug/fight.

I made it a tug game until he knew what I wanted and then faded out some of the tugging. I VERY occationally spit food at him after the out, just to keep him guessing.

Now the retrieve IS the reward in a large part I think.

I have just started shaping the hold with food the way Connie described. If you read the recent shaping post, you will see that "free-shaping", just waiting for the dog to look at the item and me to click, was frustrating for both of us, but also a good learning experience. I am used to faster results and I just cheated and pointed to the item and he would touch it and I click. I have done a few sessions and we are now at the teeth on the object stage.

Of course I can just say "get it" and he will pick it up, since he knows that command, but just trying someting different, and will be working on a calmer hold.

Ta ta.

Back chaining as Connie mentioned.

Getting the dog to hold it longer and calmer are two differerent exercises.

Mark and reward for calmness and mark and reward for time. The calmness will usually come first. Even if it for a split second, mark and reward. It's just like a sit stay. You don't add time and distance at the same time.
I also start with food, especially with a high drive dog. Using a tug/toy for a reward before the dog truely starts understanding the exercise can be to distracting.
Break everything down into the smallest incraments you can. Get each little step correct, then you can put them together more successfully with fewer problems.
Every time you teach a set of commands together ( bring, front, sit, out, etc) it is only as good as the worst link in that chain.
Yo don't toss the dumbell and hope he picks it up. You teach him to hold it, then back chain.

 Quote: jennifer

I noticed he would hold a sock in his mouth naturally and that he is motivated by fighting/tugging. I put a ball inside the sock. Worked on tug...I let go of tug, I move back, dog comes in for more tug, we play tug, I let go of tug, I move back, dog comes in for tugging and so on.

I think that's exactly the type of game that Sheila Booth recommends in her Sch obedience book!

Glad to hear that it worked so well with Farley.
Aja and I already play that game (fight, I release and back up, she runs to me and shoves the tug into my hands for more fighting, release, back up, etc.). I'll try to see if I can get her to sit without dropping it during our games.

Actually, Bernhard shows how this is done (how to gradually calm down a tug game and mold the dog into a quiet sit) on that retrieve DVD so it all ties in really nicely!

I'm glad you contributed Jennifer - sounds like this could work just as easily with a dumbell once the god understands

Fortunately Aja is a very clear-nerved pup and naturally has an excellent and quiet grip, so hopefully this method shouldn't produce any mouthiness in her. (Bernhard does warn that this method, as opposed to the first method, can create a liiiiittle bit more mouthing )

As for the corrections for mouthing, it's definitely a "it depends on the dog" thing!!

I used what I learned from Bernhard in the retrieve DVD as well as the "preparing your dog for the helper" DVD.
The first point he makes (and that never even occurred to me) is to let the dog know that you aren't pleased with the mouthing. Seems so obvious, but I never thought of it

You can use a voice correction (either just warning with the voice, or even a bit of growling, like Flinks does), you can also lightly tap the dog on the head along with the voice warning when he mouths. Ed even says that, for SOME dogs, once they understand the correction for mouthing, you can even use a leash correction to correct for mouthing on the helper in protection.

Somewhat unrelated, but thought it was really interesting

Ed and Bernhard are both clear, however, that this does not work on all dogs and that there is no universal "recipe" to fix mouthing. Sometimes it takes some experimenting with different techniques to solve this.
It would be too complicated to go into everything Flinks tries on the bitework DVD to solve mouthing, so you can watch the tape for more ideas

Anyway, I'm glad you posted. It's awesome to hear that some dogs can pick up the retrieve so easily through games alone, without all the tedious back-chaining steps that it took for me to train Taro to do this

 Quote: Yuko Blum

sounds like this could work just as easily with a dumbell once the god understands

Oh boy...... that should read DOG, not god

Yuko said; "Just curious, but how long did it take your dog to pick up all the steps and put together a nice retrieve?
Just looking for an estimate".

I'd love to take all the credit for Thunder's retrieve but the fact is he's a fantastic natural retriever. He'd run a Lab in the ground before he'd stop. That's always been a huge factor in puppy seletion for me. It shows a natural willingness to work as a pack/team member.
My almost 7 month pup Trooper doesn't have that natrual retrieve (there were two males in his litter and the breeder got first pic) but he's doing well with it..so far. I can see a possessivenss in him that could creat problems if I do to much "ous" with him to early.
In his case I use a lot of the Flinks "Into my arms" work with the retrieve. He's also a bit of a chewer on any tug or play item if I'm not keeping pressure on it. IMHO that's worring about me taking it from him. He does have an easy out when I stay calm and just lock the tug against my leg. I just don't do that often. He's a dog that wants the tug and I like a dog to want the interaction of the game of tug with me.
Hard to put a time limit on it but first knowing that my marker,"yes", results in a food reward has helped him understand that the "yes" will also continue the game with him.
I'm also a huge fan of the Balabanov training methods. They are more in tune with our clubs methods.

 Quote: Yuko Blum

Just curious, but how long did it take your dog to pick up all the steps and put together a nice retrieve?
Just looking for an estimate.

You mean including no other venues? At home? It took me a couple of months (maybe even a little more) with 5-10 short sessions a week. This was a dog who had never met a dumbell or done any kind of retrieve. Totally green adult who had had nothing but marker sit, recall, and (I think) place at that time.

A clean slate.

I think that might have been a plus for me, because I was so green at the command that I would've had trouble fixing any problems from prior training.