To the O.P.:

A passionate subject! If you would like additional reading material, I have tons bookmarked. ;>

 Quote: connie sutherland

 Quote: jenni williams

To the OP: Sorry for the novel, but I take it seriously when my words and intentions are twisted into something they're not.

Direct untwisted word-for-word quotes, Jenni:

"a dog should NEVER be altered before growth is complete"

and

"Is it really that hard to keep an eye on a dog until it's physically mature people? Guess I come from the nasty school of thought that believes that if you can't safely and surely provide what that animal deserves for OPTIMUM health and longevity, you needn't have a pet."

Ok, direct, but not in context. Should've been "...a dog.."
You can't remove words following or preceeding others and not lose any meaning. If you just want to disagree with everything I say on principle, that's fine. But to take away parts of it to justify your interpretation is not fair.

Sorry, I stick by my assessment that 2 litters in 9mos under 18mos old is not OPTIMUM for the animal's health. Connie, can you honestly manage to argue with me on this one? You think these circumstances are OPTIMUM? I guess I need to use simpler sentences that cannot leave anything open to interpretation to prevent this in the future. Optimum is somewhat subjective. My bad.

 Quote: jenni williams

You can't remove words following or preceeding others and not lose any meaning.

Sorry.

Direct and untwisted:

"Most of us on here agree that a dog should NEVER be altered before growth is complete."

 Quote: jenni williams

Sorry, I stick by my assessment that 2 litters in 9mos under 18mos old is not OPTIMUM for the animal's health. Connie, can you honestly manage to argue with me on this one? You think these circumstances are OPTIMUM? I guess I need to use simpler sentences that cannot leave anything open to interpretation to prevent this in the future. Optimum is somewhat subjective. My bad.

What the heck are you talking about? Of course it isn't OPTIMUM.

It's TERRIBLE.

Remember? You were the one who said a dog should NEVER be altered before growth is complete and I'm the one who said Yes, they should... if the dog can't be protected from unwanted pregnancies.

You can throw words onto the thread all you want and talk about twisting your posts (again), but those were the two basic points on a thread that ASKED ABOUT SPAYING.


The stuff about "I need to use simpler sentences" and how you are always misquoted and misunderstood -- that's getting old. Regardless of anyone's opinions of it, it wastes a LOT of time and space.

 Quote: jenni williams

"Is it really that hard to keep an eye on a dog until it's physically mature people? Guess I come from the nasty school of thought that believes that if you can't safely and surely provide what that animal deserves for OPTIMUM health and longevity, you needn't have a pet."

 Quote: jenni williams

How that translates into me saying that anyone who spays a pet doesn't deserve to have one remains a mystery to moi.

To the OP: Sorry for the novel, but I take it seriously when my words and intentions are twisted into something they're not. I don't want hundreds if not thousands of people reading something I wrote and thinking someone else's interpretation of it is indeed fact.

Jenni,

You are about the only person on this board that can say something as blatant as the top quote and then try and wiggle your way out of it in the second quote.

Don't know how the first quote got twisted around at all.

I really hope Ed or Cindy jumps in to read this crap you are spouting.

 Quote: connie sutherland

The stuff about "I need to use simpler sentences" and how you are always misquoted and misunderstood -- that's getting old. Regardless of anyone's opinions of it, it wastes a LOT of time and space.

DITTO!!

Actually, I was being sincere in saying that "opitimum" was too subjective and a poor word choice. I'm sarcastic, for sure, but I wasn't being sarcastic here. That was where it got derailed and interpreted to mean that I think people who spay or neuter shouldn't have pets, which is ridiculous. If that's truly how it was perceived, then obviously, I used the wrong words. And no one likes a good debate better than I, but when we're not talking about the same circumstances, I need to clarify.
I stand staunchly by what I DID mean, and feel I deserve, like everyone else, to reiterate what didn't come across how I intended it. That's it.

 Quote: jenni williams

"Is it really that hard to keep an eye on a dog until it's physically mature people? Guess I come from the nasty school of thought that believes that if you can't safely and surely provide what that animal deserves for OPTIMUM health and longevity, you needn't have a pet."

So, please explain this.

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Do what is best for you and your dog. Don't let anyone else make that decision for you-not your vet, not your family, not this board.

To the OP, if you've done your research - including loads of various articles online, hundreds of debates on this board alone (heated threads like this one, no doubt ) - you'll find yourself at the mercy of the above quote. No one's situation is exactly like another, and only YOU can weigh your variables against the possibilities of this or that. Once you've done this, the decision you make - whatever it is - will be the right one.

Most people who ask the spay/neuter question want a textbook answer that absolves them from really thinking about the subject. Unfortunately, there are umpteen ways to look at things and while a lot of people DO find a textbook answer and run with it, those people miss out on understanding exactly what they've done, and why. There are a variety of very educated and respected opinions here about this subject, but ultimately, your decision needs to work for YOU.

~Natalya

 Quote: carol boche

So, please explain this.

Ok. I'd just gotten off the phone w/Simon's parents' "caretaker" and heard Mom's pregnant AGAIN. So, there was a wee bit of veiled frustration there. I should've stated that situation from the get-go, so people understood where I was coming from at that moment, but hindsight is 20/20. I also mentioned different sizes/breeds, acknowledging that there is not an "across the board" rule. For example, I think, like Angela said, that it's a whole lot better to spay at 8mos than 8weeks.

Optimum is too subjective. Like I said, shouldn't have used it-too open for interpretation. I aplogize. By optimum, I mean the best you can do for that dog in all respects. The best food, the best care (includes the best supervision), the best housing, etc. If you can't provide that, or rather, are UNWILLING to make an extra effort, then I don't think you need a pet. Sorry. Actually, I don't apologize for that. Call me nasty . These animals are helpless and at our mercy; we owe it to them to provide them with the best care we know how. The average pet owner should be capable of watching their dog at least until it's old enough to be altered with as few health drawbacks as possible. I don't believe there are ever NO side-effects. But, I do believe that waiting as long as safely possible (by safely I mean to prevent pregnancy) is "optimum" in a situation where someone has no choice, or at least no practical choice.

I assume too much, and I assumed that everyone would know that of course I don't mean that someone with, for example, opposite sex siblings, shouldn't alter. I just think they should wait as long as they can, exercising caution and physical restraint, until they're grown enough that they're not putting the animals' joints, etc. in jeopardy. It's all about weighing the risks vs. the benefits, and deciding what's best for that animal in that situation. And that is what I meant by optimum. I think animals are too precious to be content with having less than their absolute best interests at heart.

 Quote: Natalya Zahn

 Quote: Jenni Williams

Do what is best for you and your dog. Don't let anyone else make that decision for you-not your vet, not your family, not this board.

To the OP, if you've done your research - including loads of various articles online, hundreds of debates on this board alone (heated threads like this one, no doubt ) - you'll find yourself at the mercy of the above quote. No one's situation is exactly like another, and only YOU can weigh your variables against the possibilities of this or that. Once you've done this, the decision you make - whatever it is - will be the right one.

Most people who ask the spay/neuter question want a textbook answer that absolves them from really thinking about the subject. Unfortunately, there are umpteen ways to look at things and while a lot of people DO find a textbook answer and run with it, those people miss out on understanding exactly what they've done, and why. There are a variety of very educated and respected opinions here about this subject, but ultimately, your decision needs to work for YOU.

~Natalya

What she said. Cute pics, too, Natalya.