There are a couple things that I would like to point out here. First corrections are not, should not, be based on strength. Yes there are times when the correction must be increased in level and some dogs that may come into play at times. An effective corretion is a timing and suprise thing. If you are using a slip collar to the point of choking the dog you are using it wrong. A good correction gets the dogs attention and refocuses the dog on you. If you start early with a dog, corrections can be minimal because the dog knows what it means and will re-direct to the proper behavior. I have always started my dogs on obedience young (8 weeks if possible). Lots of praise and a flat collar only until they are around 6 months old. Very mild corrections, once we graduate to the slip collar it takes a minimal correction. There are some dogs that may need the added presure that comes from a prong, but 95% of dogs can be trained easily with a slip collar.

One thing we have found is that the corrections are more effective if the dog can't prepare for them. For this reason we have had better luck with a nylon slip over a chain one. If you need to sharpen the prongs, perhaps you should look at your correction technique.

There are 2 dogs I have ever trained that required a prong collar. One was a thick coated GSD that had enough coat to keep a slip from being effective. The other was a 2 year old Giant Schnauzer that was very dominant, and no training. Once he got the basics down we went to a slip collar with no problem.

Well said Richard. Especially the bit about not telegraphing corrections. Handlers often telegraph corrections without realizing it.

To use food or not to use food in training... For me, I like the results without it. I used to train with food but don't find it makes for a better bond. I've tested some tough dogs who were tough until they saw some food or a toy. Thankfully, that is not true of every dog but some handlers were very surprised at the results.

Which way is chosen and what kind of results you get depends on the handler. I see both good and bad results with each.

Marks,

I think the training method must fit the desired end product. Straight correction, standard obedience training, is great for a compainion dog. For a purpose where a higher level of performance is required than another motivator in addition is going to be required. This can be done initially or after standard training.

If you are testing a "hard dog" that folds for food or a ball, it isn't a hard dog or it wasn't trained to do protection work. A prey only dog may go for the food or ball. A trained protection dog won't care about food or a ball, or anything but making the bite.

Many people get the idea that they are going to overpower their dogs with corrections, it won't work. Dogs are stronger and faster than most of us will admit to. I have seen more dogs ruined by a handler that thinks they can get better results by "kicking the dog's ass" than working with the dog. In my opinion it is always a mistake to teach a dog that the way to be in charge is through superior force. It gives them an opportunity to gain control through force, and that leads to a totally unnecessary conflict.

Richard,

The dogs I tested were PPDs - thats what I train. A few of the dogs were indeed hard dogs and trained for protection - they were not prey only dogs. They did fine until the food or toy was introduced. Its not a comment that all dogs will react this way because thats definitely not the case. Just that some will if the handler isn't careful. I did this with some complacent handlers that I thought placed a bit too much importance on the toys and food.

Its not only your opinion that its always a mistake to teach by force. I don't do that although many assume I must because if I don't use motivation other than praise. I find if I'm motivated then so are my dogs. An additional motivator is not required. Its amazing what a dog will do for its handler. My dogs aren't the best, but they're certainly not the worst either.

Marks,

My point, as I am sure your point to the handlers, is that if a PPD will be distracted by a snack or a ball it isn't a finished dog. This is also a fairly simple fix.

If you are not planning on competeing in a trial situation then the standard method of training with praise and correction is a good method. I probably teach 3-4 people a year to do it. The problem that good obedience isn't good enough for compitition. It shouldn't be that way but it is.

The guy I train with, in his buisness, oversees the training of 200+ dogs a year in the correction/praise method. He also probably "fixes" another 20 a year with the same methods. I have known him for 6 years, in that time I have never seen him have to put a prong on a dog and only once have seen him use an e-collar on a dog for anything other than snake/poision proofing. It really isn't required if you use the slip collar right. Most people don't understand that the most important portion of the correction with the slip collar isn't the tightening of the collar, but the release.

Richard,

I agree with your point.

And if I trained for trials I'm sure I'd have to change the way I train!

Renee:

Exactly my philosophy. Purely positive does not mean no corrections are necessary. It only means that this is left for advanced distraction exercises. You and I train pretty similar.

Peter:

You speak for me just fine. It is hard enough to teach the average pet owner the most basic steps of obedience to try a positive approach of timing and intermittent reinforcement is asking way too much.

Paul:

If I were God I would create a bond between dog and man greater than that of food or play drive but God did not let me in on his master plans and therefore the unfortunate reality is that this is not possible in all but the rarest of dogs. Again please don’t write back well I must be an exception because my bond with my dog is strong enough. Show me your scorecard and swear on a bible that you never used food or toys and I will change my tune.

Dave:

Good question. Answer is a big YES. The dog never knows he is training my way. He thinks he is doing what he wants not what I want. “You mean all I have to do is to put my butt on the ground and this fool throws me a treat. He you guys watch how I have this idiot trained. Look my butts to the ground. Gulp. You see guys works every time.”

Ellen:

Show off. LOL.

Dave:

And it teaches the dog to work things out on it’s own. My puppy still has a hard time associating words to actions. So if I say speak and hold his food. He will try running to me then try sitting then try laying down then finally he will bark. Yea I got it.

Renee:

Yes I agree. But as a puppy I know that my dog wants food more than he wants to play ball. So I am making a calculated decision which might not work for your dog.

Renee:

How do you train for tracking without food. You wait until the dog is 1 ½ years old and throw a prong collar on him. I have seen dogs track a v in SchH 3 with there tails tucked under there legs the whole time!

Richard:

You are 100 percent correct that a proper correction comes from surprise not power. Excellent point that everyone should remember. Now Let me give you a civil dog that turns on you with the helper out of site and see if you will switch your nylon collar with my sharpened prong one. Please have some faith in me. I would not use it to teach the sit. It was used as a problem solving technique not a training tool.
Ps. Your last two posts were also right on the money.

Vince,

Been there, done that, fixed it with a nylon slip. The guy I train with will solve the same problem with a slip or two, and in some cases 2 handlers to protect each other. That isn't always an option for everybody.

Its not that I don't trust you or your methods, I just disagree. I have used a prong before, it was needed with both dogs. I just don't see it as a first option and I really do feel that there are other ways of solving the situation. I am a firm believer that pain to make a correction will back fire on you as many times as it will correct the problem. My comment really wasn't so much directed at you, but idiots I know of that will use a sharpened prong to teach sit.

Pete: Thanks for the explanation of the prong. That sounds pretty good. I think Richard also makes some good points about the slip collar being sufficient for the average companion dog.

Renee: Thanks for affirming my understanding. I've learned a lot yet I have a lot more to learn. Actually no I haven't gotten into tracking with the exception of my running into the woods and my wife releasing my dog to come find me. I guess that's called a "Handler Lost". And I've had my friend run and hide in the woods and I was absolutely amazed that my dog was able to take me right to him. I don't know if that's really considered tracking as he only had to go probably 100 yards through some brush and trees. Other than that, no I haven't done any tracking. And no I didn't use any food reward. Can you recommend a good book or video on learning tracking?

Vince: I wasn't implying that the non-food reward folks are or are not correct, I was simply sharing with this forum my understanding of their belief. I'm just the messenger here. I've already said that I'm for whatever works best and if that's food, for what it's worth, it's ok with me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
For the record, I have not used food or toy rewards in teaching my dog obedience or protection. Although I did accidentally teach my dog to out long before he gave anyone a bite. I would tell him out in order that he would drop the tennis ball and when it came time to do bite work, he would out immediately. But other than that I have not used any toys or any food in any obedience, protection or agility work.

All in all I appreciate all of the training techniques I've picked up off of this thread. It seems to be a much more positive method and if it works, and apparently it works very well, then I think that's the way to go.

Thanks again all for the great information. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Vince,

I'm not averse to people using food, unless its overused. One of the reasons I choose not to use it anymore it doesn't add anything to my training - I find I focus more on the dog rather than when to give him a piece of food. In MY case it makes for a better bond among other things.