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As you know it is illegal to carry any firearms over here in europe, but overall we do not need too

I'm afraid I have to disagree. Belgium is a relatively safe place compared to some European countries, and alot of bad things do happen even here. Brussels is known for gangs jacking cars at traffic lights, there are alot of areas where you wouldn't want to walk at night, including the area around Gare du Nord, the North Brussels train station (after 8pm or so you have to start worrying about getting mugged). In Rotterdam I stayed in a hotel or one night. The next night I moved to a different hotel, because walking around at 11pm to find some food made me very uncomfortable with some of the people around there. I would have felt a little better if I was armed.

The laws in Europe also seem to be very geared toward protecting the criminals. The US has the same problem to some degree, but certainly not as bad as here, with no ability to defend yourself legally. There is alot of paedaphilia going on too, with nothing much the cops can do about it. It is not uncommon for people to "take matters into their own hands" when it comes to that, and I will say that it was in Belgium where someone was attempting to abduct my niece. I don't remember if the guy was caught or not, but several days after the incident with my 6 year old niece, there was a news story about a guy who was killing children he had abducted. I dont know if the story was about bodies being found, or if they caught the guy who did it... but it happens everywhere and Europe is no exception.

The difference between Europe and the US though is the attitude surrounding firearms. In the US people grow up with guns and the knowledge that they have the right to bear arms. It is a cultural responsibility. In Europe, I cannot imagine suddenly introducing the ability for people to own firearms. Just do a quick youtube search and you will see just how violent places like the UK are, bar fights, club security guards beating down on people, drnnkards fighting in the streets on a Friday night. Now imagine if these people were suddenly allowed to buy a 9mm? What happens the next time they go out, get drunk and someone pisses them off? Half the population of Europe would disappear pretty quickly if firearms were suddenly introduced into a culture that is not used to them.

A friend of mine here used to be a riot-control police officer (on a horse). He's told me all the fun stories of demonstrations and stuff going on. Someone stole a GPS unit out of his van recently, he chased the guy down and cracked him over the head, then took back the GPS unit. He went to the police station and reported everything except for the assault, or he would be the one in trouble.

Another friend of mine says he takes his PPD with him anytime he goes to Brussels. I asked him, "aren't you afraid your dog will get put down if he bites someone?" (illegal here for a dog to bite someone). His response was "if someone tries to jack my car, odds are they aren't going to run to the cops about a dog bite". He made a very good point.

I don't mean to hijack the thread and turn it into a debate on cultural differences, but I think many people are under a huge misconception of what goes on, both in Europe and the US. I know that people regularly get shot in London, in areas like Brixton on a very frequent basis, but likely all over the country. These things don't make it to the papers though, so people live in false security. Many many people own illegal firearms, but law abiding citizens aren't allowed to own them to defend themselves against the criminals that do.

The average person in Europe may never be in a situation where they need a firearm. However, the same can be said for the US too. Not everyone owns a gun, and most people live long happy lives without ever having touched a gun. But does that mean it's better to not own a gun and hope for the best, or to own a gun and never have to use it?

I will try to find the article online, but not too long ago (recent months), there was a road rage incident in Wavre (10 minutes south from me) where somebody was shot and killed. Obviously, people do have guns, and apparently it's the wrong people.

I find crimes involving children the most horryfiying. Luckily you prevented your niece abduction.
I must say I am glad to live in country with a nearly no crime. (at least concerning murders), guess this is related to a smaller population. Here people can still shop in the markets with their children running freely around. Women and girls tend wear as little garments as possible (blame it on hot weather)yet they are not disturbed. A PDD here would be handy, but not a necessity.
But I would never hike in another country alone, esp. in areas where murders took place.

Steve....Good link. I've known of the dramatic rise in crime in the UK (and Australia) for a while since they've banned everything except butter knives and pencils.

The fact is, as Will rightly stated...this country embraces personal protection. Its part of our heritage. Even juries will acquit a defendant if they felt he deserved to protect himself. Even if he goes a little overboard in doing so and nearly (or barely) crosses the line.

I'll take our crime rate any day so long as our government gives us the power to deal with it. This from a guy whose business is stopping crime.

Mike i know what it is like in Belgium as i do in England where i was born, This incident happened in England, I know what Brussels is like and the part you mention the Gare du Nord I have come from there myself after nine oclock at night and i watch very carefully and i do not walk along without being very ready for any problems,
But this thing in England was totally unexpected,
Had i not been expecting other pigeon fanciers to be walking down to the show which is normal i probably would have been more aware i was being stalked, and i guess they thought i was an easy touch being only 5'4 tall and a small guy
I had a sister attacked many years ago when she was young but a lot of other kids intervened she was lucky
In Belgium as you know prositution is legal, and i think it is a good thing in one way, it certainly helps to curb many attacks on girls etc but it will never be the complete cure
Just to end a Belgian friend of mine was attacked twice in the Gare du Nord and robbed, but he is a placid man and was not up to protecting himself, or thought it best to give way to them
When he heard about my little problem in England i think he thought i should let them take what they wanted and give way to them, i found this a strange thing, and its not my way so i said nothing to him
This same friend works free to help find missing children in Belgium He is a very caring person, He also works in Brussels twice a week free as support to alcholics and Drug takers, so he does a very good job, it was when he was coming home from the office late in the evenings that he was attacked

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I'll take our crime rate any day so long as our government gives us the power to deal with it. This from a guy whose business is stopping crime.

I guess that was my point. Our crime rate is, in reality, unremarkable.

I take that back. Historically, we're in the most peaceful times human kind has ever seen.

But in modern times, from a global perspective, the United States is not out of step with the rest of the world. I wouldn't say because of firearms, but despite it. In other words, they're just a -f-ing tool. "It's a hard heart that kills."

Hey Will'
you do not think us in europe are citizens then, because the law says no to carrying Guns
I for one will obey the Law of the land up to a point,
But if i or anyone close to me is threatened then i will use anything i have to against the person doing it and then face the consquenses after wards, If anyone breaks into my house then i will do anything needed to protect my property and what is mine, and there will be no talking or reasoning that is not my way, Better to get in first and if you are wrong afterwards then appologise,
Other than that i mind my own business except if i see someone being abused as is being talked about on this thread

Steve,

The quote Will made is not far from the truth. You have a free will in your heart and will ignore the law of your land to protect you and yours. I applaud that mindset. The fact that you will be penalized for exercising a right that every free person should have really rubs Americans the wrong way. All of Europe was not always the way it is now. In theory, socialism and an unarmed society should work but, but someone forgot to tell the criminals.

The topic has skewed so thats the last I'll say.

Respectfully,
Howard

Howard
You are correct in what you say, We protect what is ours and we get penalised for doing it,
Take me giving that Yob a broken nose when he attacked me from behind' had a Policeman been around i would have been jailed for hitting him and probably been sued, and he would have been right and myself the guilty party
That is not justice, but thats the way it works over here in Belgium and also in England

Getting back to the original topic, a vigorous "Watch'em" can have a pretty chilling effect. Perhaps enough to send all but the most determined attacker elsewhere.

One of the local club members is a K9 handler for the local county sherriff's department. Her patrol dog, Grif, does a really good "Watch'em". Grif has a pretty strong presence. She said that when Grif goes into his "Watch'm", suspects that were getting ready to fight or flee just melt and become real compliant. There is no doubt that if you move, you will be bit.

On the other hand, Grif is also one of those dogs that will not back down from a threat. The incident that garnered his "Hero Dog of the Year" award involved handler protection. A large male was being taken into custody on domestic violence charges. He launched an attack on Grif's handler. During the fight, Grif was body slammed into a coffee table (breaking it) and nearly choked into unconciousness. During all that, he still carried the fight forward. The deputies had to hit the guy twice with their Tasers before they could get him cuffed. That guy's arrest cleared a string of armed robberies and various drug dealing charges.

Griff is one of the few Tom Van'T Leefdaalhof sons in the US. Tom was the 1999 WUSV Champion.

http://www.wilmothdogs.com/wk9/griff.aspx

Charlie, Grif's bloodline must be well sought after over there i would think, he sounds like a tough dog
My Fred is a g.gson of Tom Van'T Leefdaalhof on his Maternal side
Nothing like a G.S presence in a tight corner to deter the Yobs
My first look at the way they work was in the 1980's over here in Belgium, when a Police Dog cornered a Yob causing trouble
He was not so tough when the Dog got hold of him. He cried like a baby.
A wise move to take the dog with you when on your own if possible specially the girls