Quote: Lynne Barrows

Keep in mind that many things that Ed suggests in the pack structure video are for adult dogs and won't apply to a puppy.(if some of his info seems to conflict between the puppy video and the pack structure video, defer to the puppy video)

Lynne, I am just curious, what parts of the pack structure video do you believe does not apply to a pup?

I have watched the video over and over and seeing the results I am having with my 1 year old puppy, can only *wish* that I would have started him very young on these specific pack issues. (IE: not cooing and coddling, etc with puppy until CLEAR pack leadership is established--EVEN THOUGH it can be hard, even with dog) but, by watching this video, I can see *so* clearly now, mistakes I made with my pup as a youngster.

For a dog w/ issues,(or maybe bringing a new adult dog into the home) Ed talks about crate time w/ breaks only for feeding and walking, with little or no social interaction w/ the handler. This is one thing that comes to mind...

 Quote: Lynne Barrows

Keep in mind that many things that Ed suggests in the pack structure video are for adult dogs and won't apply to a puppy.(if some of his info seems to conflict between the puppy video and the pack structure video, defer to the puppy video)

My wording wasn't too good here. I think there are 'some' things in the pack structure video that are not appropriate for a young puppy...
I will watch again tonight; that statement's a bit vague without any backup!

I *think* that is *exactly* where most new owners screw up (myself included). They bring the new cute puppy home, play play play *first*. "Oh, so cute" and everyone is petting it, etc...I don't know. PLAY comes AFTER "outside" "crate" walks, etc. The pup needs to *earn* play by first giving you respect. In my mind, this is the only way to establish very very clear rules right from the get-go.

Learning pack structure, for me, is like learning a new language. We are so ingrained as a society to play play play with your puppy, coo, etc...however, like Ed so succiently puts it in the video, play comes after you've established leadership and it is clear to the dog.

Quite a bit. The second time I watched it was much better. The first time I was thinking about my GSD puppy. The second go round I watched with rehabilitating my 5 year old boxers.

I am hard pressed right now to think of specifics. Also there are times Ed doesn't spell it out what is for puppy and what is for adult but it seemed far more relevent for my older dog or if you had a problem.

 Quote: Michele McAtee

Learning pack structure, for me, is like learning a new language. We are so ingrained as a society to play play play with your puppy, coo, etc...however, like Ed so succiently puts it in the video, play comes after you've established leadership and it is clear to the dog.

But aren't puppies learning while they are playing? (i'm talking about young pups here, 8-10 weeks old). Redirecting mouthy behavior, social skills, etc?
So I think what you are saying is that playing (cuddling excessively maybe?) has lead to problems with your pup down the line?
Excessive play (affection) wasn't an issue w/ our pup. She was so darn mouthy that it was virtually impossible to get cuddly with her. So the affection was rather self-limiting!

Pups can and do in fact learn from playing. BUT, what I learned in the pack structure video is that playing comes AFTER leadership has been established.

To answer your question, no, my puppy did not specifically have too much cuddling. (how could I have cuddled with the lil monster???!!!) But in hindsight, I probably talked a lot more to him in the beginning, "chitter chatter" than setting a serious aloof tone with him as a pup...this, IMO, set him up in a few ways to try and test me...

I truly thought I had done solid groundwork with my dog. However, given the fact that my dog has "tested" me...only tells me I screwed up *somewhere* in my groundwork.

Now, after having watched the pack structure video...I have put my dog on *complete* groundwork, not missing a beat--I am seeing serious results.

I still believe much of what is in the Establishing Pack Structure can be applied to young pups. The earlier you do this with consistancy and without error, the better off you and your pup will be!!! (JMHO and interpretation of the video).

 Quote: michele mcatee

But in hindsight, I probably talked a lot more to him in the beginning, "chitter chatter" than setting a serious aloof tone with him as a pup...this, IMO, set him up in a few ways to try and test me...

Yep, I can see that, because I did the same thing. And my husband, who has always been very aloof with our pup, has to work much less than I do at getting respect from our pup.
I get what you're saying now...

 Quote: Michele McAtee

To answer your question, no, my puppy did not specifically have too much cuddling. (how could I have cuddled with the lil monster???!!!)

What!?!?
A Fetz puppy *wasn't* cuddily?

I'm glad this conversation came up because I watched both videos (8 weeks and Pack Structure) and I was wondering about what in the Pack Structure doesn't apply to a puppy. I know the majority of the tape applies to a puppy and an adult dog but it seemed to me that in the 8 weeks video Ed encourages play time with your puppy as a training/socializing method. But in the Pack Structure he does not. I guess you have to find the right balance with your puppy. I would be happy to hear what everyone thinks.