AZ Trooper,

What you are describing more aloofness rather than sharpness. Sharp has to do more than the level of stimulation required to get the dog to respond. An aloof dog is standoffish (less social), as opposed to reacting to some outside stimulus.

Richard, I never really thought of the character of the kind of dog I described as being aloof,( when thinking of aloof, I think feline, not canine)however, I think you might have a point there, to a degree. Perhaps I should have included the facet of unwavering loyalty to his / her handler also. I would want the self -same dog to be mutally dependant upon me as I am on it. Maybe I'm trying to describe an intangible ideal and that's jammin' me up.

AZ Trooper,

Most protection dogs have a level of aloofness. Most are also very loyal to their handler. Basicly based on packing behavior, if the dog is aloof with others there is no place to go for packing other than the handler and the immediate family. Fairly typical with protection breeds. My dogs are a little different based on the level of socialization I do with them. My dogs are more social than most. My preference is to keep them that way. Our dogs are part of the family and they need to be social if we have company or we take them out with us.

Richard, the very activities you describe is the basis for my question in the very first place, is that aloofness / sharpness thing not required for a dog that serves in any copacity, as a protection dog ( travel complanion, home security, law enforcement) and are we breeding / training, too much in the way of social and approachable?

In review of the previous posts, I took Dave's suggestion to refer to Ed's Terms page. Perhaps if we all agreed to refer to Sharpness as Guard Drive, that would make it easier as it seems all are in agreement that this particular drive IS needed in the composition of a TOTAL protection dog. Now the question remains, how do I RESPONSIBLY develop this drive? Is this on any of Ed'sproductions? I used to own the first steps in bite training, however, that's now long gone. Thanks for all the imput.

Az Trooper,

We train for the behavior of the agitator not the agitator. If the dog isn't approachable or social you will have to lock-up the dog if people come over. You may want to look at the thread on teritoriality that has been going. You will find a dog at the other extreme. A common falicy is that a protection dog is an animal that isn't to be trusted in public is part of the problem that has created negative impressions about protection dogs. At the hospital that my dog volunteers as a therapy dog, they are very happy with his acceptance of people. In the time he has been going there has been one problem based on his protection training. They ran into a firman with the big burn pants they wear, they do kind of look like the pants on a bite suit. He outed fine and that was the end of it.

A dog that isn't social enough to be trusted with people can not be a travel companion, or take the dog for a ride, leave it at the Vet's, home security or be out in public as PSD's.

In my experience the best protection dogs were very social with other people. They are out and with their people all the time. If they weren't how much help are they going to be if they are locked in a crate or a kennel? The dogs that make me nervous are the dogs that are bite trained and not social, they need to be watched very carefuly to make sure you don't back into their space. They also tend to be aggressive in other areas, like dog aggression. Every good dog I have had was extreamly social when ther was no reason for them to be working, they were still on guard for an attack from even people that were invited in to the house. One of them was sitting in our kitchen being hand fed by my neice, she stuffed food down his throat up to her shoulder in his mouth. Then pulled it back out to eat herself. That same dog had cornered someone that hit him in the face with a chain and broke his jaw in 2 places. he kept the guy there after his jaw was broken. Now that is a dog!

Az Trooper,
As a side-note to this discussion, I have a granddaughter of Otis, and based on all the descriptions I have read, I would consider her a sharp dog. She is quick to react, more vocal, BUT also more social and accepting of strangers once they are perceived as non-threatening. I do not perceive her sharpness as fear based. For what it's worth...

Ok, time for me to chime in. I do know a little about this subject for sure. Before I get to far all I have to say in that Richard again has hit the nail on the head.

Richard says: If the dog isn't approachable or social you will have to lock-up the dog if people come over. You may want to look at the thread on teritoriality that has been going. You will find a dog at the other extreme.

I think Richards talking about "MY" dog! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Richard you said I could correct this locking my dog up problem with obedience. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

AZ TROOPER: The thread on territorial agression is under the forum (topic) "Training Obedience in Protection Training." Lots of good stuff there.

Richard says: A dog that isn't social enough to be trusted with people can not be a travel companion, or take the dog for a ride, leave it at the Vet's, home security or be out in public as PSD's.

Richard I have to disagree just a little bit. These dogs can be a travel companion and you can take them for a ride provided you put them in the back of the truck. You just won't have too many people volunteering or willing to ride with you and you're dog. I have a camper shell so this makes it easier. Now for the part I didn't want to tell but I must, if I'm going to tell the whole story. This type of dog will most certainly drive you crazy barking and lunging at anyone or anything they see through the camper shell window, and this is while the truck is moving. Some people will call this "Guardy Behavior." I think I'm the only one driving a truck that is "BOUNCING" and "SWAYING" all over the road and highway because I have this killer in the back of the truck barking, lunging, and trying to attack anything that drives up next to us on the road. What a site, I get alot of looks believe me.

People jump, scream, "Some have crapped their pants" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> but most walk way out of their way to avoid this monster when I park the truck and go in somewhere for coffee. No way could he ever ride in the cab. No way could I leave the windows cracked far enough for him to stick his head completely out of the window. He would surely take off someones hand or worse.

So take a lesson from me, think about what type of dog you are willing to put up with in the future. Richard is telling it like it is. I cannot just ask anyone to drop by the house to feed my dog. I have yet to have anyone volunteer so this is a hugh problem for me if I cannot be home. For instance, having to be admitted into the hospital, work late or go out of town on business. Who's going to watch and take care of a dog that wants to eat everyone. The answer to that is almost no one. You will need to find an experienced handler or trainer. Also not every kennel situation will be good for you're dog. This can cause a ton of stress on you're dog so the way the kennel is constructed or layed out is also important when boarding this type of dog.

I have personally learned alot owning and taking care of this type of dog and they are not for everyone thats for sure. They take an awful lot of time, work and you must be willing to do whatever it takes to make the relationship between you and you're dog work. Don't misunderstand me I personally love this kind of dog but you are limited when it comes to doing certain things with this type of dog. I personally think that there is much to be learned about dogs and dog behavior by owning and caring for this type of dog. I'm also talking about Dominant, Rank, and overly agressive dogs but that's my opinion and that's another topic completely. Alot of people would or could end up getting hurt if they don't take the time to study and treat this type of dog with respect and love. As much trouble as I have had and as careful as I've had to be with my dog I would not trade him or the experience for anything. On the other hand it has made me think about and appreciate more the dogs that are more social.

Good Luck!

For any newcommers search for one of our better threads "solid nerves or sharpness" also titles "Kevin teaches Vince the maning of sharpness" Here is a snip it.

Kevin's responce to my comment :

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Sharpness has nothing to do with nerves. Nerve strength is different than sharpness although many dogs with weak nerves appear sharp due to low thresholds to things like survival behaviors (fight or flight behaviors). Sharpness is not sharp-shy.
A dog with good nerves and high fight drive can be sharp. A dog that is highly protective of its handler can be sharp. Please.... do not confuse piss poor temperment as being sharp. Low thresholds to some behaviors does not mean weak nerves. Low thresholds to survival behaviors, environmental insecurities, and rank behaviors are undesireable characteristics to name a few. You can equate them with weak nerves. A low threshold to combat behaviors is not weak nerves. Do not confuse combat behaviors with survival behaviors and environmental insecurities.

Hey Glenn, maybe try a crate in the back of your truck?!?!?! Man, you scared ME with that last post <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />