Norman, I would respectfully ask just one thing in regards to your comments - if there are multiple helpers testing and working so many more Boerboels than myself......where are the titles that these dogs should be attaining?

From your reply it sounds like at least a few dozen have been tested and worked....with the end result being only a SchH A on one dog?

I await your reply with interest.

With the same interest, even though the dogs in those videos were training for dog sport, you apparently did not throughly read all of my reply. Boerboel's are not all training for titles via schutzhund but also valued as to whether they will do there work/function and for that, the best test for a Boerboel is not schutzhund. The only reason I tried it was I have been in schutzhund for 30 years and the breeder, because of that, wanted me to give it a go to better help him in his effort to identify a certain segment in his working lines. That said, schutzhund does not quantify if that dog will stand his ground in front of a 2000 pound bull or if that dog is animal aggressive, which is not good for a farm dog or if that dog will continue to work after being stepped on by said bull. It doesn't even guarantee that dog will protect. Moreover schutzhund does not translate for all breeds/types but it can be helpful in selecting breed stock for most herding breeds, the Boerboel not being one of those. However IMO if schutzhund keeps selling out to its show community it will not even be good evaluator for the GSD.

Now that aside do want to contact, as I suggested, these two knowledgeable gentleman who worked my dog or are you satisfied with only looking at videos to reach a conclusion where personal knowledge by skilled observers is also available. I think I know the answer. Please understand this is not personal but only a difference of opinion. Norman Epstein

No, I read the whole reply, but I'm of the school where I like a little proof to back up claims.
( You know, like a claim such as "To those gentlemen I say, times they are a-chanin')"

I often see posts praising such-and-breed for protection or their working ability, but there's rarely any proof available to back up their posts. I always call that "wish fulfillment" and without a breed achieving some type of titles, how is anybody suppose to be able to really determine if the breed can do what it's owners claim?
So some type of test is needed, such as a high lvl AKC ob title, a herding title, or yes, a SchH title, since the breed's protective nature is discussed so often.




And I'm not seeing how contacting people that I don't know would help convince me that a breed ( where every example that I've seen first hand has been a flat out failure ) is being worked well. I'd be taking someone's opinion that I don't know and can't judge the accuracy of - I'm fine with using my own first hand experiences to judge a breed. I've got more than enough years of dog experience in mutiple venues with lots of titles to show for it to enable most people to see my experience lvl and judge for themselves if I know what I'm talking about.

And you'll never catch me here making excuses for a breed, if they have flaws I'll point them out - whether they're my own or others.

And as I said, when I come across a good one, or when the breed starts racking up some meaningful titles, my opinion will change. Until then, I guess we can agree to disagree.

I'm sorry Norman, I think you've got a lot to contribute to this community, and I really hope you'll continue to be a part of discussions here. I know what it's like to feel attacked and to defend your position, I completely do. I think one of the great things about this community is that everyone, even the moderators, will tend to give each other the benefit of the doubt.

I think you went a little too aggressive here. You stated opinion as fact and went head to head with one of the best trainers on this forum.

It comes down to this: If you're going to call people ignorant, you need to back up your views. Schutzhund is a mostly objective, consistent, ordered way of rating a dogs temperament and ability to work. Instead of responding with a list of dogs that are titled in Schutzhund, you've gone off the deep end talking about schutzhund being worthless and a poor metric. You have to understand how this makes you look. First you say people are ignorant about your breed, which, among all breeds, is totally unique and "Works differently", then, when given a chance to back up your views, instead of listing Schutzhund titled Boerboels...you say that Schutzhund, a metric used for decades by thousands and thousands of dogs and handlers, is not viable. You've totally blown your credibility.

David, schutzhund is not objective it is score driven. There is a certain amount of objectivity within the parameters of each exercise but very little. That said I have called no one ignorant. However, if opinions based on incomplete information are seen as being objective then I don't know the definition of objective. The breed is unique as there are very few, that is one of the definitions of unique, and it does work differently and must be trained differently. You don't know that because you have never trained one. I have. Look David there is a certain amount of latitude (what doesn't have to be written) given when speaking via chat boards to those that have a certain amount of experience. I assumed that Mr. Rambeau was one of those people. So for you, this is what I didn't write. For the record I have admitted that the breed is in bad shape and very few if any were training in the sport of schutzhund before I began a few years ago. So if you choose to participate in the sport with a Boerboel certain facts should be taken into consideration. Unlike GSD's whose breeders have been defining working lines for well over one hundred years the Boerboel, for the most part, has no established schutzhund working lines, *for the sport*. Moreover it takes years to train any breed to pass a working schutzhund title and because the mastiff matures very late this time frame is even longer. So for one to ask why no titles yet is to admit he or she is unaware of those facts. Mr. Rambeau is aware of those facts so out of respect to him I didn't feel it was necessary to regurgitate them.

To think, as you said, that schutzhund is as strong and or viable as it ever was says to me that you are not aware of the changes in the protection routine, that has weakened the sport, the breed and has clouded the the evaluation of the breed. Moreover I didn't say schutzhund was worthless, but because of these changes, it has been severely weakened, and stand by that and so does any experienced schutzhund handler who has been in the sport as long as I have. Norman Epstein

I'm with David here Norman. I'd like to hear the differences and qualities of the breed and since you have experience in the sport with not only the Boerboel but the German Shepherd how exactly they would compare. Maybe it's not something you would care to discuss and maybe I'm the only one interested, but I think that beats getting so defensive about the whole thing. The tone of this thread comes accross like a "Show Person" who's dog didnt win so the judge must not know anything about the breed.

Norm, you seem to change your tune between posts here, so give us some some clarifications:

First off, you let me know that my having had worked eleven Boerboels wasn't many in your eyes and you posted names of people that you state have worked far more.
Ok, so if there's at least a few dozen working Boerboel's ( by your method of counting ), again, where are the titles?

I tested my first Boerboel about eight years ago, so the breed has been active a bit longer than needed to train a few of them to titles, wouldn't you think? Or are we talking a time period of decades with multiple generations needed to get titled?

Just let us know so we're not "unaware of the facts", ok?

Mr. Rambeau wrote:

"I tested my first Boerboel about eight years ago, so the breed has been active a bit longer than needed to train a few of them to titles, wouldn't you think? Or are we talking a time period of decades with multiple generations needed to get titled?"

Tested them for schutzhund eight years ago, please. Just because the few folks who owned Boerboels wanted them tested does not mean they were prepared to put the time, money and effort necessary to train the dog to a schutzhund working title which requires a bit more than "being active" or passing a test. Where are the titles you ask, you got to be kidding. Now, as well as eight years ago when you tested the breed, very few of us had ever heard of a Boerboel, I know I hadn't, and then thinking those few who did own one, said to themselves, I know a good idea let's try for a schutzhund title, which is the breed specific test for another completely different type/breed, bends ones imagination. Training for schutzhund requires, a multi year commitment, experience or a mentor with experience,a club and a good helper, therefore just showing up for your tests means very little. I didn't think it would be necessary to explain this to you, but apparently I overestimated your knowledge on the subject. I have already admitted that the breed overall is in poor shape but that doesn't necessarily mean now, that *all* of the breed is. That some breeders now are breeding for correct Boerboels and have several generations on the ground but it take more than breeders it takes handlers who want to commit 3-4 years on a breed, not meant to be validated by this test. Why would they do it? Beats me. when they could take a herder who has established working lines and the necessary phenotype to excel in this test, and because of the Boerboel maturing late, in half the training time. To that end please read my reply to David for further clarification. Because of breed stock selection now as well as then there are few available healthy breedable dogs of correct character and temperament, of course we are talking about about a lengthy period of time for schutzhund titles. Given the above is that such a difficult concept to comprehend. If you choose not to accept those facts you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are not entitled to the facts. Norman Epstein

It is possible to state opinions and facts without also including insults (I won't name names because that would be insulting and disrespectful, and also everyone can pretend it's the other person who wasn't named).
This is not supposed to be a boxing match.
What is this? Round six? I've lost track.

Norman, that was one of the longest excuses made for a breed that I've seen in a long time.

And as an FYI, paragraphs make things a lot easier to read - but I'm not sure why we should read it if in your opinion we're "not entitled to the facts" ........