I have two issues with this thread.

The first is how quick you are to denounce purely positive training. Just because it doesn't work for you (or me) doesn't mean it doesn't work. Many an agility champion (and a SCH3 or two) have been trained with no corrections. It works, just not as quick as force methods and not with all dogs.

The second is the idea that you should punish a dog for mistakes. I hate this idea. To me it is lazy training. I'd rather show a dog what want, increase his motivation for it, reward him, and then finally if I know that he knows and he refuses then correct. I just don't think its fair to correct a dog when he doesn't know any better.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

I have two issues with this thread.

The first is how quick you are to denounce purely positive training. Just because it doesn't work for you (or me) doesn't mean it doesn't work. Many an agility champion (and a SCH3 or two) have been trained with no corrections. It works, just not as quick as force methods and not with all dogs.

The second is the idea that you should punish a dog for mistakes. I hate this idea. To me it is lazy training. I'd rather show a dog what want, increase his motivation for it, reward him, and then finally if I know that he knows and he refuses then correct. I just don't think its fair to correct a dog when he doesn't know any better.

Point #1 is true, and we all know it. It's not really the point of the thread.

And for #2, I am hoping (and, in fact, I believe, considering who posted it ) that "mistake" as used earler did not mean that the dog who didn't understand the command was corrected.

'Let the trainer examine himself when his dog makes a mistake or does not understand an exercise, and ask himself, “Where am I at fault?” ' Max von Stephanitz

 Quote: benjamin colbert

II'd rather show a dog what want, increase his motivation for it, reward him, and then finally if I know that he knows and he refuses then correct. I just don't think its fair to correct a dog when he doesn't know any better.

That is exactly what is Ed Frawley's theory of corrections in dog training, what he has taught us all via his videos, the method we all use, and the method that is being referred to in this thread.

The OP's question, If I'm not mistaken, was whether the dog who knows a command will ever have a time where he won't refuse you ever, and therefore, not need the correction ever again. (i.e. - outgrows the "rebellious" phase).

My answer would be it depends on the dog, and on the trainer.

Additionally, if my dog puts his front paws on my kitchen table to take something, even if it is one of his dog toys, he will get a correction. NOTHING is to be touched when it is on my counters or table. I don't even know how you would train that with a clicker/treats. It isn't a formal training command, but manners. When my dogs are laying nicely with their toy, then yes I give them praise and attention.

Edit: in the above paragraph, a correction is whatever it takes to get my dog to remove his paws from my table and understand he's not to go up there. It doesn't have to be a leash correction, it could be a voice correction.

I think that it would be the same as above - some dogs are more rebellious than others and will do what they want when they think your back is turned, even knowing they are not supposed to do something. Other dogs, who understand the ground rules, won't break them. I have both.

Ben, I don't think anyone on this thread does not promote positive training. We are just talking about leash corrections and if they are ever need for the life of the dog. Some yes, some no. I agree positive training is great and can do much more than corrections alone.



Edited by Alex Corral (03/11/2008 11:32 AM)
Edit reason: spelling

I could easily train manners without corrections. I would reward the dog consistently when all his feet are on the floor and I would teach an alternate behavior. I read somewhere (might have been here) of someone who's dog would bolt out of open doors that touching a door handle is a cue for down stay. Good manners and no force necessary. I'm not saying its right for every dog and it is certainly harder with dogs that are highly motivated.

And perhaps I misread but I believe the second post referred to the trainer who uses all positive, no force methods as in less than ideal terms.

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

And perhaps I misread but I believe the second post referred to the trainer who uses all positive, no force methods as in less than ideal terms.

I agreed. I thought that the Halti, Humane Society, etc., quote in the O.P. was less than ideal myself.

Fair enough...and as far as the Halti goes, with the right dog, the Halti can be an excellent tool. Each dog should be judged independently of all others to find the tool (or lack thereof) that should be used. This is where Halti people fail. They suggest it to anyone with the assumption that it is the lesser of two evils. I can promise that I have met dogs who are a dream to train using a Halti, I have also met dogs with whom the Halti is far more aversive than the prong.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Benjamin Colbert

And perhaps I misread but I believe the second post referred to the trainer who uses all positive, no force methods as in less than ideal terms.

I thought that the Halti, Humane Society, etc., quote in the O.P. was less than ideal myself.

HUH?

I think the proper use of the pinch/prong collar has saved many a good dog from euthanasia.

You can cure ignorance but you can't cure stupidity.

 Quote: benjamin colbert

The first is how quick you are to denounce purely positive training. Just because it doesn't work for you (or me) doesn't mean it doesn't work. Many an agility champion (and a SCH3 or two) have been trained with no corrections.

The number of "purely positive" method trained dog to SchH III versus dogs trained with corrections would likely be at a ratio of 1 to 10,000, with no exaggeration.

And I have a question for you Benjamin, have you trained a dog to an advanced title ( particularly in SchH ) with an only positive training method?

things that dogs are usually in need of correction for are bad pack behaviour, it seems. And it is natural to be corrected by the top dogs in a pack if you step out of line. But it should always be fair, and not overly harsh.
I dont know how postive reinforcment is going to teach a dog that certain behaviours are NOT acceptable, like aggression. And personally, I think alot of dogs will take advantage of the lack of clarity in an only positive reinforement approach.
I dont mind the theory but I think corrections have their place.