Is this dog going to be used for sport or what?

Martha,

With out seeing the dog I wouldn't bother breeding it if it does have fear based problems. Temperament is much harder to correct for in breeding than conformation is. If the dog is "tightly" line breed that may be part of where the problem is coming from. Throw in the problem of line breeding on a "weak nerved" dog and you are just compounding the problem.

Pauline,

What you describe is just what I am talking about. Another common move is for the dog to rush past you and bump you with their shoulder, to kind of knock you out of the way. Dogs are much more sensitive about body position and contact than people are. These things may look like accidents, but they aren't. As time goes on this type of thing will get to be more blatant and a little more aggressive (harder or by moving faster to knock in to you).

Todd,

In this case the crate isn't a punishment, it is more like a "time out". There are 2 differences. First, don't only put the dog in the crate when it has done something wrong. Second, when you put the dog in the crate it has to be done calmly and quietly. Preferably don't even talk to the dog when you put it in the crate. If you are "angry" or loud while you are doing this the dog will see it as a punishment. If it is done very matter-of-factly the dog just sees it as a restriction of movement. It will usually take a few time out's to get the point across. The dog should not demonstrate submissive posture while you put the dog in the crate. If the dog is acting submissve you are being too aggressive when you are putting the dog in the crate.

There's no doubt much of what you see is fear related-- this is not normal behavior
for a pup. It's not to say dominance doesn't play some role, i.e. "if an adult dog
sniffs her while she is under a chair or tries to dominate her by putting a paw on her
back", but in 50% of the post, fear most likely is the culprit. I think you trainer is
taking the correct approach. If this is fear related--at this age-- a correction will only
worsen the situation. It may only be a stage, so give the pup the benefit and be
careful for a while. The child may be the initiator of the aggression, but it doesn't
condone the response. I think with proper nerves etc., this trivial event with the
child should have little affect on the pup.

Richard,

Regarding the pup’s line breeding, dog ‘A’ appears twice 3 generations back, once 4 generations back and once 5 generations back, dog ‘B’ and ‘C’ both appear twice 3 and 4 generations back. The weak-nerved dog ‘D’ appears twice 3 and 4 generations back. Would you consider this tight line breeding?

Also, I wanted to ask you; in your first post you referred to ‘applying a mild correction with a flat collar’. How do you do this? Do you have a leash or tab attached to her flat collar and give a mild tug? Just wanted to clarify.

Melissa,

Regarding her posturing when she growls, her ears are forward, no hackling, her tail is not between her legs. She does not appear fearful.

I wish I could say it started right after she was vaccinated, but unfortunately no. It started about 2 weeks after her first shot.

Yes, she is out of show lines, American, no less. I know, I know, the worst of the worst.

I co-own her with the breeder because he initially wanted to retain an interest in breeding her. However, since this temperament issue has come up, he has offered to replace her, if she doesn’t straighten out, so I doubt he is thinking of her as much of a breeding prospect.

Todd,

With respect to the kid issue, I try to absolutely not leave her alone in a room, loose, with a child present. However, no adult has total control over a child or pup unless they are able to keep their eyes on them non-stop and even then the adult has to have pretty fast reflexes.

I do wish, though, regarding the ‘reaching into the crate’ incident that I had much more gradually introduced her to the ‘party scene’ as I think this may have ‘set her off’. I don’t know what I was thinking. Unfortunately, it just never occurred to me that this would be too much for her. I hope it will end up bring trivial as John suggested.

Brad,

I had considered showing her in the conformation ring, but since it seems pretty obvious that she is insecure, I’m not sure that this would be best for her. By the way, what activities are the biggest confidence builders? Herding? Fly ball? Agility? Tracking? Or does it depend on what the dog is good at?

Thank-you all again for your well thought out answers.

Martha

Second, when you put the dog in the crate it has to be done calmly and quietly. Preferably don't even talk to the dog when you put it in the crate. Now I don't know about you, but I don't know many pet owners who could do the above after the pup just growled and snapped at their child.

There's no doubt much of what you see is fear related I believe the above statement is naive. We have no clear picture of the dogs posture and so forth. We also are going on the owners word. How often do you see an owner describe their dog being protective of them when the dog is behind them??? Owners rarelt can accurately describe what is going on w/o emotions.

JMHO

How often do you see an owner describe their dog being protective of them when the dog is behind them??? Owners rarelt can accurately describe what is going on w/o emotions. So very, very true. We had a dog come out for an eval the other night. Was supposedly a dog that would play with anything, yada, yada..

Dog was at least 25lbs overweight and I will be darned if it had ANY prey drive (although in the heat with a dog that fat who really knows)

Puppies go through a few wierd phases too. I agree that the dog and children need to be seperated, it is only fair to the dog. If you can't effectively do this, don't bother replacing the dog.

Martha,

Yes I would consider this tight line breeding. That many dogs appearing that often would be a concern to me. Add in the fact that the breeder is willing to replace the dog I think you can see where this is going......

Yes a leash or tab on the collar and tug to break the puppies concentration.

Todd,

I wouldn't use the crate to correct for the snapping thing. That would be a shake, leash correction, or hang it. This has to be a definitive point to the dog. I would also combine any or all of the above with a firm out command.... even with a puppy.

The crating is for the bumping, mild dominance issue.

The dog has been evaluated by at least 3 people that should be able to tell if the dog has fear issues. 2 of the 3 said it was defininatly fear based and the 3rd was the breeder who is offering to replace the dog. Based on that I would lean to a fear problem. It may be worth while to have someone that works with Protection dogs evaluate the dog.

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I wish I could say it started right after she was vaccinated, but unfortunately no. It started about 2 weeks after her first shot.

Sorry, Martha, I should have been a little clearer. Two weeks is about the time frame I had in mind when I asked. What was the dog vaccinated for before the behavior began? And did she have any other strange symptoms between the time of the vaccination and the behavior change, like lethargy, not eating, vomitting, rash, excessive scratching, goo in the eyes, limping, or anything else strange? Bare with me guys, cause I'm telling you, this sounds EXACTLY like a female version of my boy, which scares me The only obvious differences being that my dog sometimes gets his hackles up, and he is part show line....so humor me for a minute <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

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How often do you see an owner describe their dog being protective of them when the dog is behind them???

Way too often, I'm afraid. You're right on about that. In addition, I have other people making comments to me about my dog like "oh, don't correct him, he's just being protective" or "look how protective he is of you"! Nonsense!!! He's freaking out inside, and they're telling me how cute it is that he's so protective! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

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It may be worth while to have someone that works with Protection dogs evaluate the dog.

Excellent advice, Richard. That may be the only way you're going to find out for sure what the deal is, since it's pretty impossible for anyone to tell you definitively over the internet.

Quote:

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I believe the above statement is naive. We have no clear picture of the dogs posture and so forth. We also are going on the owners word. How often do you see an owner describe their dog being protective of them when the dog is behind them??? Owners rarelt can accurately describe what is going on w/o emotions.
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How so Todd? The owner gave a description of the events, not an opinion on the
behavior. Where in the original post does the owner describe emotions?
Remember, the trainer feels the response is fear motivated. If this where an adult, I
may go along with you, but this is a pup. All the evidence clearly points to a fear
response.