Jennifer;
I think I understand what you are saying and I disagree, A copmmand does not need to be given in an authortative tone to be understood, words should be proofed also, said in lots of ways so the actual word is understood, not just the tone. A leader doesn't need to be a dictator./

Roni I agree to that, I am not saying that you must say commands in a loud or aggressive way to be understood, not at all. I also often proof out words and teach varying tone of my own voice when teaching a command for OB. I'm talking about energy, not specifically anger or ruler or king or commander over the dog.

As I said. I like dogs that are responsive to the energy they are given in a command. To be specific - excitement/happiness.

Whispering is another type of energy, you are being super cool and calm and if you prefer a dog that responds calmly to calmly spoken and given commands I see absolutely nothing wrong with that

I am not "old school" I do not believe that the only way is a harsh way and prefer/use PR methods for teaching/learning phase.

Thanks for the response, Roni, and I agree with you that the body language, etc., are factors that contribute to the difference between a mediocre trainer and a good one. Additionally, I think that dogs can certainly learn the difference between those who will enforce a command and who won't (read: my husband!).

Follow-through on a known command is one thing that I find that many pet owners miss.

I think it's something that is taken in collectively by the dog...pack structure outside of training, vocal commands, body language, enforcement, timing, drives, distractions, maturity...the works.

Anyway, I think we're saying the same thing in different words. I don't know-- It's crazy nuts in my house right now and my drive to write this must not be as strong as the distraction level!

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Re: training the way you plan to say it. I say this because the word is not what has the meaning to the dog. Sit does *not* mean sit does not mean sit (varying tone of voice) unless you train it that way. One person saying sit in two different ways can get two different results because the dog responds to the sound, not S-I-T.

Actually, that's why I think I have no issues with my release command being "okay" with my dogs. I don't say it when I'm releasing the dog the way I, or anyone else, says it in normal conversation.

Robert...we seriously hijacked your thread again. My apologies and I will stop now, I promise, so that we can get back to your concern. I'm sorry!

Robert:
A "task" is considered a learned behavior once the subject can complete the task 8 out of 10 times. Perhaps, Willie is in that margin, and also your timing with the e collar is rea;lly good
so the time between no and the nick is probably short. I do like saying no to mark the incorrect behavior before you use the nick button on the collar. Sounds to me like you are doing a great job! If he does seem unusually distracted, don't hesitate to turn the level on the e collar up incrementily, pretty quickly, and as soon as he responds turn the e collar back down to the his working level.
Good Luck and please keep us posted.

Thanks for that Roni - I'll give it a try. But the thing is, he almost always responds to the NO. I hardly every have to nick him. Its not so much that he doesn't comply when distracted (although that is an issue too that I am working on by keeping him on the long line and gradually adding more and more powerful distractions) - this issue I am trying to get at here is narrow - how to train him to respond reliably to the Come command BEFORE he hears NO. My instincts are telling me that the only way to do this is to eliminate the NO and starting giving him a nick a moment or two after the Come command - maybe combined with a NO. Maybe after a short while phase the NO warning/marker back into the picture.

"I guess my concept of drive is a more intense and focused state of mind, and I have trouble thinking about my dog being in any kind of drive when he's just lolling about 50 yards away sniffing deer poop and looking over his shoulder at me."

I agree - and that is Willie in spades. He is a great dog and this e collar is helping the two of us develop a terrific relationship. All this training I have been doing with him on the recall is spilling over into almost every part of our relationship even when we are not training - I think it has strengthened the pack structure in the house as well. Wonderful tool. Best thing I have done in a long time. The only problem I have is that my 27 year old daughter is living in our house temporarily and I know there is no way she would ever accept the notion that an e collar is a safe and humane training tool. If she new I was using an e collar she would probably report me to the Animal Police. No amount of explanation or education would ever convince her. Of course she has never trained dog and has no clue. She is well meaning but overly emotional and ill informed. So, I have to sneak around and do all the training when she is at work or school or away from the house - I don't want to have a knock down drag out argument over the pros and cons of e collars with her.

Hi Robert,
I was grinning at your description of sneaking out sceretly to train with the e-collar in case you get reported to the Animal Police....so here's another benefit of that beep pager function on the TriTronics collar. Sometimes when I'm out hiking with Dillon and he has his e-collar on, I'll run into disapproving people ("Oh my - is that a *shock* collar on that nice doggie??") So I show them the pager and say "This is what I use it for", and we do a demo: I put Dillon into a down-stay 20-30 yards away, hit beep, he comes to me at high speed and plants his butt with a flourish in front of me (he knows this demo routine well - I swear he just about looks around for applause at the end). It never fails to avert disapproval and turn the conversation more positive.

 Quote: sarah ward

So I tell them "It has a pager - this is what I use it for", and we do a demo: I put Dillon into a down-stay 20-30 yards away, hit beep, he comes to me at high speed and plants his butt with a flourish in front of me

While I think this is good, I feel that people need to be educated as well.

I usually do a demo with the collar on low stim on my hand and then have the people try it. That also helps with the "myth" that they are terrible torture devices......

Great little demo Sarah. I'll have to have that one ready in case I get "caught" by my daughter one day! Not sure I'm ready to take on the role of e collar defender for everyone I meet on the trails though. I'll leave that to others. Life is too short.

BTW - take a look at the attitude in the picture I just added to my signature. He wouldn't ever blow me off - would he?

That's a great idea, Carol - next time I find Dillon and me doing our demo I'll incorporate it.