Will Rambeau wrote in part:
And why aren't these dishonest judges being reported?

Will, I have often wondered the same thing. IMO I think the working handlers don't report them because they see most show lines now as a sub species. They view these dogs in much the same way as a weak alternative breed. No one is going to breed to them anyway and none of them will be in any meaningful competition so for those reasons no one really gives a damn. The judges are a small fraternity and protect there own unless the mistake is so flagrant they can't turn the other way and those instances are few and far between. The big time competitors, for the most part, don't want to make waves because they are busy selling pups, videos and there expertise and may trial under one of judges. JMO

Another show line perspective... (speaking of SV type conformation / W. German Show Lines not American Bred AKC showing - I know nothing about that side of things...)

The people are part of the problem too. Judges that are viewed as being "harsh" with the pencil don't get invited back. And let's face it. Most of the judges like being invited to come here and judge their 2 shows each year.

I keep holding out hope that the main GSD organizations (UScA and WDA) along with the membership will start insisting that the protection work in the Sieger Show tests and Breed Survey tests be done correctly. Another part of the problem is the ease with which dogs seem to be able to get titles when sent to Germany. What a racket. I know that there ARE show line breeders out there who DO want the very best in terms of the conformation AND the work. I hope they stick to their guns and I hope people use their dogs in their breeding programs.

Oh I could say a whole lot more about the results from the weekend and what I think of which dogs and their placements (not from this show - I wasn't there - but from prior first hand viewings) but I don't want to get a spanking. There are certainly some show line dogs that I really like though, and ARE capable of good work. They are occassionally found among the leaders, but more often found in the middle ground of the conformation rankings. Encko vom Moorbeck is an example of a working class male from the weekend Sieger Show - he ended up V12 or something like that. (following the typical over blown VA gift fest)

But I also love a gorgeous V working line dog too. I love 'em all I guess.

Anyway...just two silly cents. I can't NOT post in the annual show line dogs suck thread!! (and I'm just kidding in case the smiley face doesn't totally give that away!)

Beth Fuqua wrote in part:

The people are part of the problem too. Judges that are viewed as being "harsh" with the pencil don't get invited back. And let's face it. Most of the judges like being invited to come here and judge their 2 shows each year.

Speaking from a working perspective I would change your very good post by inserting the words "not being consistent" in place of the word "harsh"

 Quote: norman epstein

Speaking from a working perspective I would change your very good post by inserting the words "not being consistent" in place of the word "harsh"

Your point sounds fair. I've only been involved for about 4 years, so I can't personally comment much on the consistency factor.

I mainly am saddened to see GOOD show line dogs get dissed along with the whole bunch, just as much as I hate to see craptacular show line dogs rewarded.

Beth

The problem is Beth there are so few good working show line dogs. Therefore when they, collectively are discussed one does assume, in them, certain oft seen weak behaviors. The unfortunate thing is today show line dogs don't need an abundance of character to be considered breed worthy, but they are only considered as such by other show line breeders. The good news is the good ones do stand out.

 Quote: janet koehler

Forget the 'show'. If the dog can do the work, it obviously has the correct conformation.

I strongly disagree. A malinois has the conformation to work but a german shepherd should not look like a mal. I think we are lucky enough not to have such a strong difference in working and show dobermanns in the general picture. And the breeders I am in frequent contact with, do show their dogs but also try to work them. Last year was the first national IPO championship ever so we don´t have a very high level yet but the interest in working abilies and more work goes into training them. This gives me hope that I don´t have to choose between the masters just yet. It might be trying to fight windmills but it is worth a try until there are dogs out there who don´t look ugly (and many "bred for working" dobermanns are as are some showmonsters) and can still track and bite and don´t have to strain their brains out to get over the 180 A-jump. Ofcourse this is not enough to concider a dog to be a working one but as long as there are enough breeders that value all three major factors (look, working ability, health) in a working breed and strive for all of them, I plan to support and hope that all is not lost. I am still so young that I give myself permission to be naive a bit

Hi Janna

I was referring to the German Shepherd when I made that comment. I love this breed, so I can get pretty passionate about them. The poor German Shepherd, has 3 distinct looks, sooo, which one is the real GSD?? Will the real German Shepherd Dog please stand up!

Two of the types in my opinion have deviated from the standard.


I don't believe the showring has done anything positive for the conformation nor the temperment of the German Shepherd Dog. In fact I think it has been a huge detriment. The proof is in the pudding. Look how much the dog has changed in conformation over the years! It's ridiculous.


The GSD is a working dog. The good working line breeders work their dogs weeding out the dogs that can't do the work (without all the politics and backscratching). To me it is obvious which line is closest to what Max wanted the GSD to be. Obviously, not everyone agrees with me, but that isn't anything new

Janet I couldn't agree more with you reply. Moreover I don't think breeding just for type and forsaking function has helped any breed. Even lap dogs have to have the stability to sit still for a time.

I agree Norman! The showring on the GSD though, seems to have totally screwed with the structure too, not so badly in other breeds.

All show pure breeds are affected to a greater or lessor degree. Have you looked at the AKC Cocker Spaniel or the Neapolitan Mastiff or any mastiff for that matter. All pure breeds for the most part are caricature’s of what they once were. Please read the following now famous study by Dr. Jeffrey Bragg "Purebred Dog Breeds into the Twenty-First Century: Achieving Genetic Health for Our Dogs" http://www.netpets.org/dogs/reference/genetics/bragg.html and and equally informative article taken from Telegraph news paper "Should Crufts be banned?" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/main.jhtml?xml=/health/2007/03/07/ftcrufts107.xml&page=1 Maybe they can give you a different perspective.