Quote: james bottle

I believe against my dog, this was told to me by others in the club who have known of this breeder for many years, im still trying to figure this one out.

It's actually quite common in confirmation circles but I've never heard of it in performance events. Maybe I'm naive but is it required for a dog to be intact to compete or just highly suggested? Either way I find it highly odd that we're plotting for legal loopholes to get out of a contract condition that was agreed to by two parties. The truth of the matter is a contract was agreed to and signed by two people, the akc will likely not be involved or come to the rescue, nor do I think they should. If you can't stand the contract you shouldn't have bought the dog plain and simple.

Also if you need to have proof of having your dog out of the gene pool but leaving the nads you can always get a certificate of sterilization by getting your dog a vascectemy. Most good vets with a little prompting will agree to it even though it is more difficult.

I don't know Melissa that the discusion is so much about James ducking his obligations, as a conversation of whether the contract is even legal. A contract can not be valid if it goes against a prevailing lawful standard.
I think though, your idea of a vasectomy is really a good one. The dog is for all intent and purposes neutered. There by full filling the owners part of the contract, and still allowing the dog to grow as he was designed. Yeah, I like that solution.

HEY JAMES. Vasectomy. Get the dog a vasectomy. Show that short sighted breeder the paper from the vet that says the dog is uncapable of reproduction.......Problem solved.

Neat.
Randy

A vasectomy is a fantastic idea. WIW WIN. The breeder would have to be a real --- to not go for that.

LOL I like it ;-)

a vasectomy FTW. I hope the dog is not into revenge. = )

about getting out of legal loopholes. IMHO if it is customary not to have your dog Fixed for what ever work you want your dog to do, and you disclosed to the breeder what it is you wanted the dog to do, and he did not properly inform you, I think you are more than properly justified.

It could be the breeders negligence. If
1. he was informed that you where a novice
2. he was informed what you wanted the dog to do
3. Nuetering will effect/deminish in any way that which you infomed the breeder you wanted the dog to do.

I would sit down and talk with the breeder. Explain to him your situation.

First, there is some misinformation in this thread. You can not show a dog in AKC conformation if it's on limited registration. You also can not register the dog online with just the litter number and the parents AKC numbers, you have to have a unique PIN number that only appears on the individual dogs AKC "puppy papers" (the papers you get that you turn in to get the final registration). Also breeders are not licensed by AKC, they can loose their registration priviledges but I don't think someone would loose them over this situation, since you did sign a contract regarding the breeder withholding the papers until the dog is neutered.

I would suggest you sit down and talk to your breeder, but the reality is you agreed to this before you purchased the dog. If you can't work out another solution, you may be stuck with the one you previously agreed to. Your breeder may not have thought anything of the Schutzhund vs neuter "issue", because you said you weren't persuing serious competition. I've placed more than one Malinois pup with people who plan to do Schutzhund or Ring and also want to neuter the dog. I tell them it will limit their trial options, since national/international levels of competition may require the dog be intact, but they can definitely play at a club/local level with a neutered dog, and removing the testicles does not equal removing all working ability. I do recommend they wait longer then 8 months for health reasons, but that's me.

You also don't need papers to compete in Schutzhund. You can get a scorebook, the dog will just be listed as a "mix". But you can train, trial, etc without registration.

 Quote: kadi_thingvall

I would suggest you sit down and talk to your breeder, but the reality is you agreed to this before you purchased the dog. If you can't work out another solution, you may be stuck with the one you previously agreed to. Your breeder may not have thought anything of the Schutzhund vs neuter "issue", because you said you weren't persuing serious competition. I've placed more than one Malinois pup with people who plan to do Schutzhund or Ring and also want to neuter the dog. I tell them it will limit their trial options, since national/international levels of competition may require the dog be intact, but they can definitely play at a club/local level with a neutered dog, and removing the testicles does not equal removing all working ability. I do recommend they wait longer then 8 months for health reasons, but that's me.

I agree. There are a lot of things to be learned in purchasing and raising your first pup from a breeder - contracts are one of them. The truth is, if a contract is correctly completed, it is indeed a MUTUAL and binding agreement between 2 parties, and they DO exist as a legal recourse for BOTH parties, should something happen down the road. You signed it, you should follow it - and if you can't/won't, the first thing to do would be to inform the other party and have a civil discussion. There are situations where you can avoid contract details if you think you can just fly under the breeder's radar (as I did for a bit), but if papers have been withheld until the contract is upheld, and you need them, then you need to work towards a new agreement.

I signed a contract on my first pup that required I neuter him by 8 months as well - honestly, I wasn't really thinking that far ahead, and having been drilled with pro-spay/neuter info for so long, it seemed agreeable. However, during Oscar's first 6 months with me, I had read enough about the negative effects of neutering before maturity that I didn't want to do it that early. My dog is a purebred, but not a competition or show prospect, so all I really wanted was more time. I didn't actually tell the breeder I had waited until just after we did it (at 2 y/o) for fear that she'd take some legal action, in regards to the contract... silly me. I assumed she would be irrational, but while she wished I had talked about it with her, she wasn't unhappy, and I assured her there were no puppies produced in the time we waited, so all's well. I'm glad I followed my word (even if I didn't really want to neuter him at all), BUT, this is one experience that will serve me well when I look for my NEXT pup - I will be MUCH more careful about what I'm agreeing to in the future and will certainly talk through things more thoroughly with whomever breeder I choose.

I would absolutely sit down with the breeder FIRST, if you haven't already - perhaps you could just agree to a LATER neuter - or the vasectomy (which does seem like a win-win to me). Is this breeder a serious working dog breeder? Do they sell dogs for sport on limited registration withOUT neuter contracts? If so, the OP may have just given off more of a "companion dog" owner vibe than sport, thus the breeder did what breeders should do and matched him with a pup (and contract) that seemed to fit his situation. It IS up to the new owner to READ AND RESEARCH all the elements of any contract before signing it, so I wouldn't come down so hard on the breeder - especially if the OP hasn't laid everything out for them with some alternate options yet. Maybe the breeders is a jerk, I don't know...

Personally, forging ahead with legal lawyer action seems like more trouble than it's worth. Do you REALLY want to find out if the court can force you to give your dog back to the breeder?? Worst case scenario, they can probably require that you neuter him anyway... + some contracts state that the buyer is responsible for ALL court fees, AND there can be a straight up fine attached to simply breaching the contract! (all of that would be spelled out in your contract). So, thousands of dollars later, you could find yourself with a neutered dog anyway, but you'd also have gained an enemy in the breeder....

Never hurts to try the path of least resistance first - and coming to the table in a calm, cool, responsible and professional manner, having thoroughly thought out a few ways to make a compromise, will work in your favor...

~Natalya

just a lawyer talking here but -- it sounds to me that you advised the breeder that you wanted a dog for schutzhund. and the breeder then sold a dog and conditioned the sale on the dog being neutered, rendering the dog not suitable for schutzhund. you should go ahead and plan for your dog to go through schutzhund training, and wait for the breeder to try to sue you to force you to neuter him. you can claim the contract is voidable because of fraud and defend against his suit by getting letters etc. as evidence that neutered dogs are not suitable for schutzhund. IMHO this breeder is destroying his/her own reputation by such shenanigans.