I Understand that a dog recieving any kind of irritant will scratch at it. If the dog is not used to the prong it would definatly qualify as such. My dog scratched at his flat collar over and over again for 2 monthes until he got used to it being there. He now spends his time scratching at his prong, So as an experiment I tried a choker. Same result. Some dogs just don't like stuff new on there neck.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I agree with the suggestion to start with a hungry dog...
ETA: Have you ever seen the Leerburg Basic Ob video?

You may misunderstand about the greyhound. I was not feeding him before class. We even tried skipping the morning meal too. A normal dog would have been hungry, but he has a very low food drive. Sometimes he will refuse to eat for days if I try to feed him enough to cover his spine a little. He looks like I'm starving him, but he does this to himself. It's mostly the breeding, it is common for greyhounds to remain that skinny. He also has some issues from his raising that he is not accustomed to eating while being watched, and will not accept food if he gets nervous. I've seen him take his favorite treat out of my hand and spit it out on the ground when he didn't feel like eating. Our classmates are always impressed by his "leave it" command, but he's plain old not really interested in anything the teacher puts out. (No-one takes seriously my suggestion that a classmate be used as the tempting object. He does love to sniff butts.)

...

Ed covered the basics of marker training in "Your Puppy 8 weeks to 8 Months", but most of my lessons on marker training come from other sources. I tried clicker training on my cat first. I stink at it.

I'm much better at body language communication and molding methods. Molding methods have the side effect of building trust so when I need an unusual movement (like getting on the vet exam table, or letting me look at a funny spot in the fur, or climbing into a different vehicle) they trust me to place them. Clicker training is a great tool, but it's just not for me. I've tried it already, I've already studied it well, pointing me to more info is not going to suddenly change my mind or my capability.

 Quote: denise skidmore

... Ed covered the basics of marker training in "Your Puppy 8 weeks to 8 Months", but most of my lessons on marker training come from other sources.. ... I stink at it.

I'm sorry that you had poor instruction from "other sources." I don't believe that a thoughtful and intelligent trainer with smart dogs, which is how I would describe you, "stinks" at a method that is, at its base, so profoundly simple (operant conditioning and a tool to tell the animal that the reward is coming the instant he does the wanted behavior).

1.

 Quote: denise skidmore

.....The motivational methods I've seen result in a dog that watches a target or the face instead of where it's going. If your method has a diffrent result, I'm willing to hear more. ....

2.

 Quote: denise skidmore

I've tried it already, I've already studied it well, pointing me to more info is not going to suddenly change my mind or my capability.

I was responding to the first comment above; then you posted the second one in reply to me.

Your studies, I would assume with a less-than-ideal instructor, yielded incorrect conclusions.

But not liking the method or feeling uncomfortable with it -- are of course your prerogatives.

I have to withhold food from my GSD for up to 30 hours to get any real food drive from her.
She is ball/tug driven, which works just find for OB.

Doesn't do a damned bit of good for tracking though, so I just don't feed her after an early, light breakfast the day before training.

 Quote: connie sutherland

I'm sorry that you had poor instruction from "other sources." I don't believe that a thoughtful and intelligent trainer with smart dogs, which is how I would describe you, "stinks" at a method that is, at its base, so profoundly simple (operant conditioning and a tool to tell the animal that the reward is coming the instant he does the wanted behavior).

All successful training uses operant conditioning, wether they use the term or not. Classical conditioning is the thing really big in clicker training that takes a lesser role in other methods. The other big thing is that clicker trainers depend heavily on only one of the four motivations, and only ever use one other motivation. I train with all four motivations, depending on the task being trained, and the stage of training.

But classical and operant conditioning together don't make clicker training either. I could load the word "no" with a positive punishment, and then wean the dog off the punishment and only use the word no. Most untrained dog owners do this naturally. Most of them do it wrong so the dog becomes fearful when they say "no", instead of just redirecting the behavior.

The average clicker trainer is purely positive and would have a heart attack at the above suggestion. But it follows all the scientific principles they base their training method on.

Please don't confuse theory with practice. I never did or would recomend anything so stupid as load the word "no" the way the clicker is loaded. A dog should never ever be punished that way. It is confusing, makes no sense, and breaks down trust in the alpha. A dog trained with corrective methods must _always_ know why it is being corrected, and know how to avoid the correction.

 Quote: connie sutherland

1.

 Quote: denise skidmore

.....The motivational methods I've seen result in a dog that watches a target or the face instead of where it's going. If your method has a diffrent result, I'm willing to hear more. ....

I was responding to the first comment above; then you posted the second one in reply to me.

I was hoping you were not using "motivational method" as a euphamisim for clicker training. I use all kinds of things to motivate my dogs, I could call my methods motivational if it was not already an overloaded word.

 Quote: connie sutherland

Your studies, I would assume with a less-than-ideal instructor, yielded incorrect conclusions.

Mostly I studied books and the internet. I always do have to go look up terms like "negative punishment" when having in-depth discussions on the matter, I'm not an expert, but I believe I understand the theory, but just can't manage the practice. At the training club and at petsmart I see way too many examples of owners doing it wrong, so I have avoided any hands-on classes there. (Besides the awful noise a whole class of clicker-wielders lets out.) I did end up with a professional purely positive trainer for Sailor's first class, but she was just totally mystified by a dog that didn't want food, and did several things to further lower my opinion of local clicker trainers. I've seen really cool stuff done on the internet, like the guy on youtube that teaches cats complex behaviors. I know the method works for those that do it right.

 Quote: Alyssa Myracle

I have to withhold food from my GSD for up to 30 hours to get any real food drive from her.
She is ball/tug driven, which works just find for OB.

Doesn't do a damned bit of good for tracking though, so I just don't feed her after an early, light breakfast the day before training.

Why not scent the toy? Why does it have to be trained with food? Anything she likes well enough to look for should work? I saw a dog on a documentary that was trained by finding one of his favorite people. After they got head starts long enough to require tracking, they introduced the concept of the scent article.

I have not done scent training myself, excuse my ignorance.

 Quote: denise skidmore

All successful training uses operant conditioning, wether they use the term or not.

Of course it does.

 Quote: denise skidmore

The average clicker trainer is purely positive ...

but
http://leerburg.com/markers.htm
QUOTE: In its simplest form marker training involves making the work crystal clear for the dog. It involves simplifying the training in a way that removes any possibility of the dog not understanding exactly what you expect from him. It also does this in a way that motivates a dog to want to learn. When dogs enjoy the work and want to be part of the process we have a system that only requires minimal corrections to get compliance. .... I will say right off the bat that I am not a motivational purist who thinks that dogs never need corrections. In my opinion those who say this either train a specific type of dog or they lack experience with self motivating dominant dogs. END QUOTE

 Quote: denise skidmore

... I was hoping you were not using "motivational method" as a euphamisim for clicker training. I use all kinds of things to motivate my dogs, I could call my methods motivational if it was not already an overloaded word.

It was you (not I) who said "The motivational methods I've seen result in a dog that watches a target or the face instead of where it's going."

 Quote: denise skidmore

I believe I understand the theory, but just can't manage the practice. At .... petsmart I see way too many examples of owners doing it wrong, so I have avoided any hands-on classes there.

I'd avoid those store classes like the plague unless I had inside info that the local one was very very different from the ones I have seen and heard about.

I do hope that you decide to watch the more detailed intro in Ed's Basic Ob video, or maybe pick up Karen Pryor's little paperback (also available on LB).

I believe that marker training is on its way to being the method behind the best training.

But as we all know, the only thing two trainers will always agree on is that the third trainer is wrong.

 Quote: Denise Skidmore

Why not scent the toy? Why does it have to be trained with food? Anything she likes well enough to look for should work? I saw a dog on a documentary that was trained by finding one of his favorite people. After they got head starts long enough to require tracking, they introduced the concept of the scent article.

I have not done scent training myself, excuse my ignorance.

For some forms of tracking and scenting, that would work.
For Schutzhund Tracking, that is, competition tracking, it would not.

Schutzhund requires the dog to keeps it's nose on the ground, and literally sniff each individual footstep. The only way I've ever seen to teach this, is to put a peice of food in every footstep, until the dog understands what is being asked.

Every time the dog lifts it's head on the track, you loose points. It's just a different tracking style, more formal and strict, and requires different training methods.

I just want to add one tiny note. All the words in a glossary of marker training, many of which are a new language to lots of experienced trainers, are not necessary to see marker training work in all its simple glory. They are not necessary to try it, either.

As useful as they are when marker training shows us how profoundly powerful it is, and we want to get more and more out of it with shaping and linking, I was very happy that I did not allow my own ignorance of many of the terms and steps to keep me from trying it.

Seeing how precise the marker makes the info we impart to the dog is eye-opening.

It's the way to give the dog a perfect little snapshot of the exact behavior that earned the reward.

All JMHO.

I've been able to teach a ridiculous amount of stuff to my 7 mos old pup using marker training, that I never would have been able to teach, using other methods.

My dog has learned "how to learn".

When learning a new skill, she knows the exact moment that she is performing the right way, I can fine-tune her actions, and help her mentally narrow down the exact behavior I want.
I don't just want her to sit, sit fast, I want her to sit straight, look at me, hold the sit until released.
She understands all the nuances of "sitz", not just oh, I'm supposed to sit with my butt on the ground.

She understands that plotz (down) involves getting her belly to the ground as fast as her little doggy body can do it, keeping her body straight, and staying there until released. It's not just, lay down.

She learned the subtle nuances much faster, because marker training told her the exact second she got it right. She doesn't have to guess at exactly what part of the behavior she was rewarded for. Was it when I looked at the ground, when my front legs touched the ground, or my belly, or when I looked up, or when I cocked my hips to the side or when I got back up or when I looked at that bird over there?

Marker training removes all the confusion, quicker and with more clarity.
I predict what my dog is THINKING, and reward that. Every time I give the marker word, it makes a snapshot picture in my dog's head, of what the "good thing" is. Those snapshots form a movie for the dog, of how to perform the task.