Quote: jaana aadamsoo

I have a dog that is a pretty "hard keeper" and just want to point out that you can´t keep on feeding more forever. Yes, my dog will eat (but some won´t) but I take her for runs in the forest, walks on the streets (and she circles around enought that I will want to wait after a feeding before doing that), we train obedience and tracking (for what she obviously has to be hungry) so it is impossible to just keep on feeding her all day and she can´t eat enough to keep her in condition with just two meals. My dog lost condition FAST when I tried to put her on raw (probably my bad, I know) and I fear bloat enough to keep her on kibble now.

 Quote:

And fear of bloat isn´t because of the raw itself but the amout I have to feed- I whould feed 4-5 times a day. When whould there be a gap long enough to take her out for some serious running (that means letting her loose in the forest- she just races herself silly)?

I just don't get this? How can you feed kibble in enough amounts to keep your dog the weight you wish, but can't feed enough raw to do the same? (Providing that your dog will eat it of course...I do understand hard keepers, but this is not the case here) Are you concerned because the raw amounts look bigger because it contains more water than dried up kibble?

If sled dog racers can feed their dog's raw...it must be possible even for an EXTREMELY active dog. I just do not think that Jaana's dog is more active than many of the raw fed dogs on this board.

I definately agree that fat is key but that does take time to add. I also agree (like that smart Mike dude said) that the dog may lose some weight at the begining while starting out with a diet that has more bone and less fat than you will ultimately end up with. (eg. starting out with just chiken backs with no skin)

If one has a dog that can't afford to loose a pound or two during the switch, I would probably do a kibble meal and a raw meal alternating until I got enough fat/meat/organ over time into the diet with the rmb to go all the way to raw.

Not saying that anyone should feed raw if they are not comfortable with it...but it seems to me that if you think you would have to feed 4-5 times per day to keep weight on with raw it doesn't seem that that could be true if you can feed kibble twice a day and keep your dog at a good weight.

I am also not a health professional, JMHO.

Yes, it is the amount that I have to feed is alot more with raw. I might be wrong but I have had the impression that stomach full of water can be a cause of bloat too so is there a difference if she gets it out of a bowl drinking or in a pig thigh? My dog lost 6 kg and this is pretty much for a normally 30-35 kg dog. I suspect that a dog that can´t keep condition and needs abnormal amouts of food is not a sled dog or be used in breeding of sled dogs (not that I think that they don´t use very high amounts of energy even with good use of the food). I know many dobermanns with similar problems who are concidered normal and are just fed very high fat kibble.

I don't know that you can really accurately compare amounts when comparing kibble and raw.

Kibble is processed and has had all the water removed and raw has all the natural moisture intact. It's like comparing apples and oranges if you are talking about volume and weight.

Allowing your dog to get his water requirements through his daily meals is a much healthier way especially if you are worried about bloat.
Dogs that eat kibble usually drink MUCH more water than dogs fed a correctly designed raw diet. Many moons ago when I was still feeding kibble my dogs used to guzzle water to the point that you could see and hear their stomachs sloshing around.

I would guess that if a dog lost so much weight on a raw diet it was lacking in the proper components, not being fed enough or maybe the dog has a metabolic issue.

Having raised high drive working Dobermanns for many years and now raising Malinois, I haven't experienced any of the issues Jaana mentions. Actually, just the opposite.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: Jaana Aadamsoo

Normal pork is just fine with her but adding fat gave her some serious runs...

Yes, I have always been quite gradual about adding fat, and I have often used good oils as the form.

That sounds to me a classic case of to much to soon, and most likely a mixture of other factors why the dog would get serious diarrhea.

I recommend salmon or herring oil or in a pinch flaxseed oil for extra calories as it seems to be easily digested on top any RAW diet.

The amount of fish oil needed to increase calories to any significant degree might be a lot of Omega 3s (yes, a good thing, but you want an Omega 3 - Omega 6 balance), and if I were already giving a therapeutic dose of long-chain Omega 3s (fish oil) but still needed to add fat, I'd consider something like cold-pressed hemp oil or other oil balanced in 3s and 6s.

I wouldn't turn up my nose at cold-pressed olive oil, either, as long as I was already giving the fish oil for the long-chain 3s to help balance the 6s in poultry and other meats.

If this sounds "just too too," the idea is to provide 3s in fish oil (a very good source) and then to give other oils if needed in as good a form as you can (no chemical treatment and as little heat treatment as you can manage).

ALL JMO.

P.S. Calories or no, just about all dogs (and humans) need the long-chain 3s in marine sources. The caloric load of a beneficial daily amount is not significant, IMO. 9 calories a gram, and I give a gram per ten pounds of dog weight.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (06/18/2008 10:43 AM)
Edit reason: p.s.

It could also be that the Dobie is allergic to salmon oil, or has an extreme sensitivity to it. (a friend's dog cannot tolerate salmon oil-- in any amount)

I am following this thread, and it is good to know that some loss of weight may happen at the beginning when I switch, and I will not panic about that if it happens. I simply cannot go back to kibble, nor can I feed raw sometimes and kibble other times. (I would waste too many of my raw-feeding Euros just to order a bag of grain-free kibble over here)

My last bag of kibble is about to run out within the week.. my freezer is ready for my dog's switch. Yay!

Veeda has been getting salmon oil for a pretty long while and only good has come out of that

 Quote:

I would guess that if a dog lost so much weight on a raw diet it was lacking in the proper components, not being fed enough or maybe the dog has a metabolic issue.

I agree that this could be the case (though I am pretty sure the amount was not it). For raw was hard for me and the way my dog looked scared me silly but I hope I will have the guts to try again. If not her, perhaps with another dog...