i believe there is a place for both.
that is why i wlll own both
working lines look great working, look like crap around the house
showline looks like crap working, and look good around the house
these are general terms, and variations to both
My parents were small hobbie breeders of GSD's in the 60's and 70's
We had GSD'S black and tan's that were fire balls on the courage test.
That were great dogs ooozing of full drive.
Im not sure what happened in these last 30 years, but the divide is there,
and its a shame

James wrote in part:
"Im not sure what happened in these last 30 years, but the divide is there, and its a shame"

James what happened was a segment in the GSD community "in the last 30 years" conveniently forgot that form follows function, not a committee. Regards Norman

I will go out on a limb and say that for the most part, I think show line dogs are not attractive. Being that I am not your typical show line breeder, handler, owner, and trainer, I prefer a dog who can work. I completely agree that a dog who is correct and enthusiastic in the work is the more attractive dog. Most high lines are either over sized, head shape is wrong, roach backed, washed out pigment, and the drive of a slug. Maybe that is why I can appreciate a high line dog who can work, who does work through the pressure, who enjoys the work, and is eager to engage.

I think what bothers me the most, is that to the majority of (SL)breeders, what they are breeding is acceptable, at least to them. The charater of most of the SL I meet is either that of a golden retriever or a cowering slug. Yes, the structure of those dogs may be close to correct, if you don't count the awful topline or oversized body, but the breed was not designed to gait around a ring. Ring work is the absolute LAST thing I do with my dogs, and usually only for the breed survey.

If more SL breeders and owners spent more time training for the work, and less time in a ring yelling "huphup" maybe, just maybe some of these dogs would prove their ability. Maybe those who didn't would be washed out of breeding programs, and the black and reds might recover a bit. A sieger show does not prove the dog at all. The VA rating of Excellent Select is a freakin' joke! VAs are handed out like tictacs, at these events. No importance is placed on the actual ability of the dog. Not to mention the political placements. I would like nothing more than to see the males at a sieger show get SG and a working line dog be the ONLY VA. I would stand on the side lines screaming for joy in the loudest voice. Maybe then, those who make their living off of show line dogs will see what their breedings have done to the german shepherd dog.

I, also own a working line dog who is my SAR K9. Over the years we have had several working line dogs. The most "attractive" of those dogs was our Hainpark dog Danny. A dark black sable who was the biggest mush when not working but the most serious of dogs when working. Ah, what I would have given to see him at a performance test at a sieger show.

The bottom line is that you have a much better chance of ending up with a good dog getting a working lines puppy than showlines. If a person wants an easy puppy around the house that turns into an easy adult couch potato , don't get a gsd, there's tons of other breeds out there. It's not that complicated.

I own a showlines dog, we love him ( one of my favorites of all time ) but he completely sucks in comparison to my working lines dog, totally different league in the work department. It's hard enough to find a great working lines dog, why muddy the waters and add showlines into the mix?

I'm not trying to be rude but i think showlines are generally for people that don't know any better or people that want a simple dog with low drives. I'm not talking about any posters on this thread but in general. Is there a great showlines dog out there? probably, but that great dog would be the exception that PROVES the rule,

the whole idea that i was responding to was that many of us have difffering ideas of what a "good dog" is b/c it all depends on what each person's goals are with their dogs.

i was not looking for a competition dog, or a police dog. if i had been, i would have bought a WL puppy. that's a no-brainer and i actually do know enough to see the diff and choose according to my lifestyle, goals and time-limitations. but i do enjoy training for SchH and some PP as a hobby, and also wanted a dog that was protecteive and sensibly so. not a dog that was obsessive or super challenging to channel their drives down the avenues i wanted to pursue.

some people have limited time to devote to serious training, or the only "local" clubs are far away. maybe i am wrong in assuming that a WL puppy would require more time to commit/devote to training and directing all that energy to appropriate behaviors. i am pretty active and hike and train on my own every day so i sure didnt want a couch potato but i also didnt want a completely DRIVEN fireball that would be more needy/high activity level than i had time for. i have a SL dog who has drive levels enough to do what i want but also isnt miserable if he isnt worked HARD every day. i also wanted a house dog. i completely respect that others have diff goals than i do and that my dog might not be "enough" for their goals. pretty is as pretty does & looks are NOT everything and that should never be the main criteria for ANY breeding program in ANY breed (or animal b/c this occurs in horses as well!).

there are "purists", for lack of a better word, in GSD's as well as many other breeds whose lines have forked into 2 very disctinct areas. frankly, IMO, the GSD has more than 2 forks, b/c IMO the GERMAN show lines are very diff from AMERICAN show lines (& there are other lines i have not seen and so i don't mention those). the aussie and the border collie have also diverged into 2 very diff types. but there are pretty aussies that can herd just like there are pretty GDS's that can work.

i think its a VERY bad idea for the tests to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator but that is what we have done in our school systems too, so its no surprise, but should be changed back.

...just my 2 cents worth.

Jennifer what you suggest is an incorrect view held by most regarding working lines. That said there are in every working breeding dogs produced that don't have the necessary drives or work ethic to be of use as a service dog. However those dogs make excellent pets because, unlike show dogs, all in their pedigree has been selected first for mental soundness. You will seldom find fear biters or dogs afraid of loud noises or suffer from separation anxiety i.e., poor examples for pets. On the other hand the chances of running in to such a dog whose pedigree has been selected first because the mirror a standard are much greater for obvious reasons. Regards Norman

A pet quality or weekend sport quality German Shepherd should be the by-product of correct breeding, but NEVER the breeding goal. There will always be GSD's out there that are suitable for every type of household, but not all of them should be bred to produce more of their kind.

IME the show line's are, in some ways, a lot more difficult to have as house dogs than working line dogs. Working line dogs are bred with a "will to please" as the Dutch call it, and sufficient drive to value a reward. Many show line dogs have so little interest in either pleasing their handlers or tangible rewards that it makes training them to any level quite the tedious task. By training, I don't mean work training, I mean any training, whether you are training the dog to be a pet or a police dog.

If the traits of a GSD do not suit the buyers, then why are they buying a GSD? What we end up with is dogs that resemble a GSD in appearance, but have a shitty temperament, poor structure, and appeal to people that like the look of a GSD but not their temperament as it's meant to be.

On top of which, the wonderful breed standard that AKC has set forth makes people believe that GSD's are all supposed to be like Rin Tin Tin. Fearless protectors, natural guard dogs with perfect temperaments, perfect judgement and every last one of them should be great with kids. This creates a divide even on the working side of the fence.

You have those breeders that breed working dogs targeted at people who want a Rin Tin Tin "all around dog," with unrealistic expectations of the dogs ability to protect "for real." Then you also have those breeders that are condemned for breeding serious dogs, because they aren't "all around family dogs," but excel in protection work. Of course, even in those litters there are going to be dogs that would make fine pets, and fine weekend sport dogs, and fine all-around dogs. So, why breed for anything less than "extremely good," when you know that lesser dogs will be available anyway?

Everyone's entitled to their opinion, unfortunately breeding on opinion results in lots of idiots breeding dogs that shouldn't be bred at all under any circumstance.

In addition, there are different temperaments required for different aspects of work. A SAR dog doesn't need the serious aggression of an MWD for example. A single purpose narc dog doesn't need to have a good grip. Out of any given litter, some dogs may be suited better for one job vs. another, unfortunately because of all this belief that the GSD is supposed to be an all around dog that can "do anything," it really skews peoples perspectives when they aren't properly informed.

Norman, i realize that just like SL dogs cannot ALL be included in the "cant work" category, neither can all WL dogs be grouped in the "maniac" category. i have been around a limited # of WL dogs, so can only form an opinion based on those, which is admittedly limited. but seeing a # of PD's from WL's---i knew that level was going to be too much for what i wanted. (*i dont mean to disrespect WL dogs by any means--i use the term "maniac" fondly and with admiration/respect.)

altho i see your point that within any litter there may be varying degrees of drive, i would have been apprehensive about getting a puppy from WL dogs and asking for a less drivey puppy, in case, as it developed and matured, that it might end up with stronger drives than expected. a breeder can only evaulate what she can in a small puppy and those characteristics can change/increase/decrease. my puppy's drives have increased since he was with the litter but not to the pt where he is "too much". : /

i think any prospective owner has to be very clear and honest with themselves AND any prospective breeder when "shopping", regardless of which type. i know of several people who just HAD to have the super high drive, challenging puppy from MEGA working parents and ended up re-homing the dog at 9 months with a K9 unit b/c at the end of the day it was beyond their abilities to train or deal with...

and i do think that there are SL breeders that focus on a BALANCED dog and NOT just on V-rating and looks.

IMHO then don't get a GSD. There are plenty of breeds that can accomodate people's needs. You like the looks but don't like the drives, so let's screw the dog, get rid of the drives and voila!
It shouldn't work that way...

Also "WL GSD's look like crap around the house..." Wth? If you want a pretty ornament get a freakin' statue. Dogs are not ornaments and people are doing them a disservice and taking away their dignity when treated like that. A Gsd is not for everybody, it shouldn't be.

Lastly, my 9 yr old WL female would put to shame many highline gsd in their prime in looks and working ability. No doubt!

enrique

there will ALWAYS be an over-abundance of "pets" available without breeders deliberatley breeding for them, i agree. "pets" should not be the goal of any breeding program but they will be an inevitable by-product and hopefully a market for them exists where they fit into a home and dont end up at the pound or worse.

i dont consider my dog to be a "pet" just b/c i intend to only do weekend dog sports and not mondio competition. but unfortunatley, working FT & having a family and horse ranch does limit what i can do and being aware of that reality, i did not choose a dog that would likely need more than i could give.

i do think that being a family member that is easy to live with (which does not mean a couch potato!) and easy to train (whether it's SchH work, house training or being good with kids and cats) is a very desirable trait. not enough to base a breeding program on! but a plus for sure. breeders have to focus on the whole pie, not just one or two slices.