A non-experts opinion.

The dog seems to want to please but needs some clarification on what is expected of him.

In the first video, the girl tells the dog to "down" and rewards him for putting his chest on the ground, but not his butt. That is not a down. She also kneels down to the dog's level while giving it the "wave" command. She should remain upright.

In the third video, I noticed the little girl pulling the ball/ toy out of the black dog's mouth. IMO, the dog should drop the toy without having to pull it first.

In that last video, the black dog looks confused by what the girl on the picnic table is trying to get her to do. I saw the typical mistake of "down"... dog does not comply. "Off"... the dog does not comply. The command should not be repeated. Also, with the tan dog in the scene, it seems to make things worse.

The "Down" and "off" are used separately to mean the same thing and the voice in the background is telling her what to do. I felt confused, so perhaps the dog did too.

If it was me, I'd start basic isolated training with the people having problems with the dog. This means no other people, no other dogs no other distractions. Just be sure everyone knows which commands to use and only use them once.

I think the dog knows what to do most of the time, but is confused by the different leader's energy and commands. i.e. too many cooks in the kitchen.

Mike,
We've only had the black dog for about five months and only started commands about a month into that, so we're no where near polished in our obedience work. The first video w/the Christmas tree shows the dog in a complete down each time, perhaps the shadowing makes it appear otherwise. This dog has a CGC and TD title, so she is aware of the down command and can perform it under distraction.
On the picnic table, the kids are just playing with the dogs. We've only had the fawn dog a month and they're just in the yard having fun, this is not considered an obedience session. I *had* to talk to my daughter on camera to tell her to say "Off" instead of "down". She's only twelve and doing the best she can and she made the mistake of "down" vs "off" and not making the black dog comply even though she was blocked by the tan dog. Consistency does matter.
Not sure which ball video you are citing as I have 100+ dog videos and didn't list this one but again, we have only had the black dog a few months and this may be an early video when we were teaching the dog to "drop it". I've yet to encounter an adult pit bull pulled from a shelter that immediately dropped an item in my hand. I usually have to push the flews over the teeth and press a bit then say "drop it" when they release followed w/praise. If you have a suggestion for teaching drop it on an adult APBT that doesn't comply, I'm interested.
I totally agree that each dog should be taught basics from one leader, without distractions and we will work in this starting today. When they PLAY with the dogs, I tell them never to use a command they can't enforce, so they aren't doing a recall, etc.

Jennifer,
Thanks, working with dogs really boosts older kids' esteem and gives great feedback. In the beginning, only I worked with the dog, then my older and then the younger daughter. Frankly I think the black dog likes the youngest best as she knew the commands by the time she got to her and the youngest has never been stern with her. The tan dog is my youngest's favorite, it really makes a difference when each family member has their own dog to work with, as I've read in the Leerburg articles.
We make a lot of mistakes in timing and cues and I'm glad we can come and ask for help here.

 Quote: lynne barrows

PS, In general, you should keep your treats hidden. You want to avoid having her only responding to commands when she sees the treat.

Lynne, when I lure w/out a command, she sniffs a bit and runs off as she knows I want her to down. My older daughter pointed out that WEEKS ago I used the dremel grinder on a nail or two while she was in a down position, but that was weeks ago. We've sat on the floor together many times since then.
I will hide the treats, buy a few of those quick open treat bags to prevent fumbling as Connie mentioned and practice my timing. The only "high value" treat this dog would respond to is a live small mammal, not sure how well that would fit in the treat bag. :-)
Thanks again!

 Quote: Wendy Mahoney

My older daughter pointed out that WEEKS ago I used the dremel grinder on a nail or two while she was in a down position, but that was weeks ago. We've sat on the floor together many times since then.

!!!!

That would do it! Most dogs are very sensitive having their nails done, and even if they've been well acclimated to the process and stand for it 99% of the time, all it takes is one clip/grind a touch too far and they'll suffer a setback. My dog JUST did this a month or so ago - he's been relatively ok for over a year, then one day he just refused to let me hold his feet for nail trimming. I haven't accidentally cut down to the quick in all this time, but I'm guessing he felt something the previous time that was just too sensitive for him. He never associated it with any other commands, but we did have to back track to one nail at a time and LOADS of treats and praise before I got him to stand for the whole process like he used to.

Your girl may be able to lay on the floor with you of her own choosing now, but you ASKING her to lie down may be triggering her memory of what preceded her last nail clipping... dogs don't rationalize like people, but they do make strong associations and this seems like a totally plausible explanation for her actions.

JMO
~Natalya

 Quote: wendy mahoney

The only "high value" treat this dog would respond to is a live small mammal, not sure how well that would fit in the treat bag. :-)

With a low-food drive dog, it may be neccessary to either A) consider using a toy as a reward, or B) withholding food to create drive through hunger. A missed meal can go a long way for encouraging a dog to earn their dinner.

Mike Hawker made many good points. Also, I have some suggestions. I can see that your pit likes to play with toy, why not use toy and food to reward his down? When you asked the pit to sit, toss a toy and have her fetch it. It makes the game more fun for her when she brings it back to you. I can show you a video of me doing with my sister's border collie.

When you are teaching her to "drop it," holding the toy nicely (don't pull it out of her mouth). If she tries to pull the toy from you, just go with it and keep holding it until she finally relase it. Don't make it fun for her, be still and calm like you are making this game very boring.

Wait for a few minutes for her to realize that you aren't going to play "tug" with her. She will release the toy to you then reward with a yummy treat. Repeat it.. Teach the word "drop it" once until she release the toy. If you kept saying "drop it, drop it, drop it," it means different things to her.

 Quote: alyssa myracle

... With a low-food drive dog .... withholding food to create drive through hunger. A missed meal can go a long way for encouraging a dog to earn their dinner.

I lean heavily towards this, especially for beginning marker work, because of the speed and ease and uninterruptiness of using bits of food.

I bless strong food drive and am always grateful that my own are so food-focused (read pigs). But I have worked with two others on whom we worked on increasing food interest, a facet that Ed addresses in the video http://leerburg.com/219.htm in a chapter called "Low Food Drive Dogs."

By high-value, I mean really high-value. I mean bits of cooked bacon, say, or bits of hot dogs mixed in with bits of cooked meats left from dinner.

Even with my Pigs*, I love the results of teaching new behaviors with a mixed bag. I combine some Simon and Huey's and some Grizzly Nu ( http://leerburg.com/219.htm ) with some real bits of meat, maybe a couple of pieces of cheese ... and I see a slot-machine eagerness in the dogs.

But first, I would definitely go for working before (not after) dinner, with all very-high-value rewards.



* e.t.a. not real pigs - dogs who are piggy about food.

Edited by Connie Sutherland (12/11/2008 03:51 PM)
Edit reason: e.t.a. for clarity

Ohh Connie, I never knew that you have pigs that is pretty neat. Hope you don't cook them for their bacons

 Quote: lindsay janes

Ohh Connie, I never knew that you have pigs that is pretty neat. Hope you don't cook them for their bacons

No, while I do think that pigs are cool (and smart), I meant that my dogs have pig-like attributes, such as extremely well-developed food drive.

P.S. Also, I'm a vegetarian. So when I type "dinner leftovers" for marker rewards, in my own head it means either a piece of chicken breast cooked up for the dozens of diced rewards it yields, or the "heel" of whatever at the deli counter, or a couple of slices of the humanely-raised and -slaughtered bacon they carry.

A lot of rewards can come out of not much meat, and then, added to the Simon and Huey's and Grizzly Nu training treats, they go really far.